VHO questions... [Archive] - Coralforum.com Reef Community

Geoffrey3029

10-04-2005, 10:38 PM

Overview on VHO. Very High Output. A type of Florecent lighting that puts out more light then your standard School room lighting. Requires Specialized Ballast (power supply), Special endcaps (On the end of the bulbs). If your not comfortable doing electrical wireing or working with schematics please reefer to a qualified electrician for any DIY instalation.
See the list of sponsors on this site for quality products. Lots of info on the web for detailed info.

Reefnut Shop

10-08-2005, 04:08 AM

Is there a reason why you "need" VHO. Retro T5 and power compact kits are available that you basically take out of the box and mount up into your canopy. They are smaller than the large VHO bulbs, but produce similar light.

Brock Fluharty

10-08-2005, 03:20 PM

I just need strong lighting, and I thought VHO's were stronger.

maxwellwhothunk

10-08-2005, 05:08 PM

PC is the way to go... look on ebay. $80 INCLUDING shipping and you have a retrofit.

Simple and relatively cheap.

Brock Fluharty

10-08-2005, 07:44 PM

I do not want a retrofit, as I do not wish to take or put together anything that has wires, and that is plugged into an outlet. I want the whole lighting system.

icereefer

10-08-2005, 09:22 PM

By far the Vho's are a better lights then PC but you basicly have to wire them yourself. are look around you can find them pre made

maxwellwhothunk

10-09-2005, 02:33 AM

The PCs that I was talking about is all pre wired, it sets on top of your tank, plug it in, and switch it on.

Its that easy.

icereefer

10-09-2005, 11:25 AM

yeah you can get the PC's .Plug and Play. but I was just referring to his second post saying he wanted stronger lights.
the Pc's I used for years, then I went to Vho's there more of a hassle but in my opinion, a much better growing light for corals. with in 2 month's stuff started growing from my LR the Pc's did not bring out.
just thought I'd add this. not saying anything bad about PC's, just wanted to post the difference, of growth between the 2 for me .
:wink: Jim
PS. MH are the way to go. for best results.

Brock Fluharty

10-09-2005, 11:55 AM

I found a fixture I want on www.aquauniverse.com. I'll find the link...

http://www.aquauniverse.com/component/page,shop.product_details/flypage,shop.flypage/product_id,1060/category_id,51/option,com_phpshop/Itemid,31/

There it is. I'm asking for it for Christmas. Thanks Tim!

maxwellwhothunk

10-09-2005, 12:26 PM

Honestly, I think thats a bit over priced, maybe its just me though. You might want to find something that warrants the actual lamps themselves, I have heard a lot of good about T5s at first, but it seems common that a few months later they stop working all together.

Look for reviews before going to far with that decision.

-Max

bigfoot

10-09-2005, 01:54 PM

Brock Fluharty

10-09-2005, 02:47 PM

You got a light fixture from home depot? Can you use actinics on it? Or only regular? Is it 1 bulb, or several? How many watts?

icereefer

10-09-2005, 07:17 PM

for what its worth both vho and t5's are old technology that are only going to get more expensive they are only generally used in aquarium applications they have both been phased out of all commercial applications by compact flourecents i use a cheap little flourex light from home depot that costs 39 dollars and i now have 2 types of lps 20-30 (4 types) shrooms 500+ zoanthids a green goniporia and a briarium sea fan 3 green bubble tip anenomes and a yellow suncoral and everyting grows at a great pace

I guess what I'm trying to say here it's really what works for you and the resurts you get out of what's working for you, I can only tell what I have had for results, I use to listen to the statistics. the pros and cons. all I know is after years of using PC's and switching over to VHO's in my 37 gal cube, what was under my PC's for 2 years, after 2 months of VHO's on my 37 gal. I got more life out of my LR and crisper viewing out of my VHO's. with my PC's I had about 3/4" to 1" of penetrating light in my sand bed. with my VHO's I can see about 2 to 3" penetration of light in my sand bed. so this leads me to believe I am getting more Light penetration out of my VHO's and I have had twice the growth out of my VHO's, there more spendy then PC's but I am happy with the results I have had so far from them. and I have had great results from my MH and VHO combo in my 40 gal.
Jim

Brock Fluharty

10-09-2005, 08:37 PM

AAAHHH, now i'm torn between VHO, T5, and MH! I really want MH.....but not gonna happen. I might go with VHO, from what you said Jim.

icereefer

10-09-2005, 09:40 PM

depending on the corals you are going to host Pc's will work find to I just like using VHO's because of the depth of my tank, the VHO's seem to penetrate better. but for all a round coral growth MH are the best.
and I can say much about the T5's never used them , but they use the T8's at our LFS and I know there worthless, as far as I'm concerned. for any kind of growth on corals .
Jim

Brock Fluharty

10-09-2005, 09:48 PM

I want a good selection of LPS, softies, clams, shrooms, and maybe, if I can, a couple of SPS.

icereefer

10-09-2005, 10:18 PM

Metal Halides.

maxwellwhothunk

10-09-2005, 11:46 PM

lol check out this system http://aquariumplant.com/cgi-bin/cart/ICE861.html?id=P6IcAFXB

maxwellwhothunk

10-10-2005, 12:04 AM

After reading icereefer's post (i didnt see the second page) talking about the depth of penetration, I am led to wonder what variable can cause this difference.

You mentioned that with the VHO you are getting better penetration than with the PCs. So here is what I think is flawed with the sandbed logic. (BTW please, I am not listing these to offend you or anything like that, I just want to compare the two together, and this seems to be one of the best moments to do that.)

First of all Light disperses by the distance squared, so that is to say in a given medium (or fluid, ie air) lets say a given light at one foot distance makes a 1 foot square pool of light. Then at two feet it will make a pool of like 4 square feet. Its basic physics, and that law applies to everything, even lasers.

Now given the difference in wavelengths of light the amount that a wavelength bends is dependent on how large the wavelength is.

Also, the reason why you can see down into the sandbed is because of the way that light reflects off of the glass internally. Personally I think the difference in wavelenght as mentioned above is negligible, as the difference is so small that it really doesnt have much bearing on the outcome.

But lets say the PC lighting was 4" from the front edge of the tank, and you were able to see 1 inch down into the sandbed. If you were to move it half the distance closer (2 inches from the front edge) then theoretically you would be able to see 2 inches into the sandbed.

Similarly if you were to move the light source 8 inches from the front of the tank, you would only see 1/2 inch into the sandbed.

Also if you move it far back enough you can hit a point where the light easily reflects internally within the glass, and you would be able to see much deeper than I explained above.

Another contributing factor would be the size or way that the reflector reflects light.

Ok, so to wrap this all up, I think that either way Brock goes would be a good decision, granted I think MH with VHO looks great its also a gouge on the wallet both upfront and electrical costs. But the reality is the only way to truely judge the penetration of a given light would be to get an underwater meter.

Ok, I am done... let me know what you think, I am interested what you have to say Icereefer!

-Max

Reefnut Shop

10-10-2005, 10:27 AM

Watt for watt, all flourescent lighting is the same so I would search for a unit where the price suits you. Reflectors play a big part into how much light gets directed into the tank and bulb quality is a factor, but it will be tough for you to research those ends to find the best as not much technical data is available (as opposed to Sanjay's studies on MH available on RC).

I would check www.thatfishplace.com , www.hellolights.com , www.marinedepot.com , etc. as all have pretty good prices. Do consider the retro kits for each if you have a canopy, because the wiring is already done for the most part and finishing it is easy by anyone with a little parental supervision if you are concerned.

Brock Fluharty

10-10-2005, 01:28 PM

I am not going to get metal halides, nor do I think I ever will. It has come to my attention, that before I should upgrade my lighting, I should upgrade my live rock quantity. I only have about 20 pounds in a 75 gallon. Anyone have any of that DIY live rock, already cured, that I could buy for cheap? With cheap shipping?

Reefnut Shop

10-10-2005, 02:28 PM

Yes that will be an issue.

I believe we have all been making the assumption that you need stronger lighting for corals....is this why you are upgrading?

If so, then you will definitely need more liverock for the sole purpose of putting corals up higher in the tank. All flourescent lighting can only punch to about 16-18" deep into a tank....thus in a 75g with corals towards the bottom you may have a big problem unless you have low light species (shrooms, etc.).

Metal halide punches much deeper because it is a point light source where with flourscent it get emitted from the full length of the bulb. I know you don't want MH, but that is some info as to why MH are better.

Brock Fluharty

10-10-2005, 02:53 PM

Yes, I think I need better lighting. 40 watts is not nearly enough, besides the fact that it's a NO fixture. I think I am going to go with some nice T 5s.

Reefnut Shop

10-10-2005, 06:11 PM

Could you clarify things Brock. We are all here providing our personal experience trying to provide you with info to decide potentially on the best lighting. However, if you are not getting corals, you could simply get the cheapest and be done with it. Any and all will make the tank brighter than your NO fixture.

Are you going to keep corals? If so, do you have any idea what kind?

Brock Fluharty

10-10-2005, 06:53 PM

I am going to keep corals, but what I said was, that if I don't even have enough rockwork to put the corals on, whats the point of upgrading my lighting?

Let me find my coral stocking list...I may have to upgrade to a 125 lol...I can't find it, but I will get it, and post again...

Brock Fluharty

10-10-2005, 07:06 PM

Ok...found it...it sounds like a lot of corals, but I will not be getting all of these. These are the corals I would like to have. If I can have them all, then great. Like I said...I might need to upgrade to a 125!

Candy Cane
Elegance
Orange tube
white bubble
green bubble
frogspawm
hammer branching
doughnut
red shrooms
green shrooms
spotted shrooms
ricordea shrooms
toadstool leather
cabbage leather
carnation tree
kenya tree
assorted zoos
clove polyp
pulsing xenia
wrinkle leptoseris

Once again, sounds likea lot, but there is a slim chance I will ever get, let alone see some of these corals. Will T5 lighting be ok for most of these? If there are some that can't but the majority can, tell me and I will take them off my list.

maxwellwhothunk

10-10-2005, 08:06 PM

Quite frankly, NO, t5 will not be enough, unless you have a very wide shallow tank, if you want all of the corals to grow in an enviorment that they will be fine growing in, you will need something brighter, and have the light loving corals at the top progressivly moving downwards for the mushroom species. T5 might suit your needs for now, but as soon as you start adding to that population you will need to change, or be very decisive on what you buy/put in your tank.

Metal halides are not the answer for now, because you simply dont need them at this point, IMO it would be a waste. I think that if you have plans to upgrade to a 125 down the road then buy some cheaper PCs for now and then when you do the upgrade, also upgrade your lighting.

Also, speaking from experience, be carfull on what you invest in at your age, think about college etc. One of the reasons why I didnt go out of state to college was because of my fish tank, so if you have plans to go out of state for college, think about that move, or start training somone to take care of it ;)

maxwellwhothunk

10-10-2005, 08:09 PM

BTW what you buy now can be used in addition to what you buy down the road, so think about tank dimentions/size etc when making purchases now, that way you wont have to deal with re-selling gear, you can just use the 'snowball effect' and eventually end up with one great collaboration of lighting, one that might be as, if not more, beneficial than one single type alone.

Brock Fluharty

10-10-2005, 08:21 PM

Upgrading to a 125 was a joke. Myself, and my step dad keep reef tanks, so I think i'm good on the college issue. Besides, college is 6 years away...what type of lighting do you suggest then? You don't think MH are a good idea, but neither are T5, or NO...what's left...

Brock

Brock Fluharty

10-10-2005, 08:28 PM

I'm starting to cave on the MH lighting...but I just found one on eBay, for $400.00...560 watts, but it says HQI...what does that mean? I really want to get this, but $400.00??? I need to get a job.......... :(

Brock Fluharty

10-10-2005, 08:30 PM

Is that gonna be too much lighting? That's like 7 watts per gallon...

icereefer

10-10-2005, 08:34 PM

I agree reflectors play a big part in your lighting,mostly PC's and MH's but not so much with your VHO's, they have a built in reflecter right in the bulb. and I do use a home made reflector I made out of polished aluminum.
and as I said before I have listened to all the pro's and cons.
I I'm only saying what after using my PC's for years. the more growth and more life my LRand corals produced after going to my VHO's and I use URI 10K and there .03 actinic. but then again I'm pushing 300 watts in my 37 gal to that has a depth of 17" to the top of my SB.
Jim

maxwellwhothunk

10-10-2005, 08:35 PM

VHO or PCs preferably

and either one will work nice with MH, so in the future your set there.

maxwellwhothunk

10-10-2005, 08:38 PM

Oh, and Icereefer, I believe you I was only making an argment, in some way to collect my thoughts, in no way as a personal attack on you. It just the fact that the VHO have a different spectrum than PCs have. So again, please dont think it is in anyway a personal attack.

Brock Fluharty

10-10-2005, 08:38 PM

Anyone have any ideas of how I can get enough money for a MH fixture?

maxwellwhothunk

10-10-2005, 08:39 PM

crack... no no no... kidding of course... ummm start working... at a LFS... get some discounts etc... just a thought

Brock Fluharty

10-10-2005, 08:42 PM

I'm only 13. I don't think i'allowed to get a job...

icereefer

10-10-2005, 08:43 PM

in Know way I thought that you were attacking me, like reefnut posted there really not that much data on them, as there is on metals.
I just know after changing over to my VHO's I have had lots better growth in my 37 gal and more things have sprouted ourt of my LR.

maxwellwhothunk

10-10-2005, 08:43 PM

sorry missed that first post of yours HQI is a specific type of lamp, there are others like HPL, EGG etc (those are not in the aquarium industry) the difference being, a standard Mogoul (sp) socket light, unlike the HQI doesnt need a uv sheild. And the connections for power are at both ends rather than just one. I'll dig up some pictures in a bit

Brock Fluharty

10-10-2005, 08:46 PM

Can I legally get a job at 13?

icereefer

10-10-2005, 08:47 PM

with parent concent, and you can only work a few hours a day

Brock Fluharty

10-10-2005, 08:48 PM

Do you know how many hours? That wouldn't be a bad start...

maxwellwhothunk

10-10-2005, 08:50 PM

http://www.plantlightinghydroponics.com/images/HQI-dbl-ended.L.gif
http://www.machhell.de/ecom/catalog/images/HQI-TS.jpg
The two above are HQI lamps themselves, the image below you can see an HQI lamp in the fixture, with a UV sheild over it.

http://www.ghl-kl.de/Produkte/Aquaristik/Produkte/Leuchten/HQI-Filterscheibe_250x200.jpg

Here are Mogul Metal halides
http://www.reefgeek.com/product_images/iwasaki/6500K_mogul_b.jpg
Here is a Mogul retrofit kit only $215
http://www.marinedepot.com/IMD/lt_mh_spiderickit2.jpg

Just as a FYI, I built a Metal Halide Retrofit for about $250 for 2-250w 10k lamps. Retrofits are way cheaper.

You would probably save money buying the parts installing them into a custom hood, and then having an electrician do the wiring, if your not comfortable doing it.

Hope the images work, its been a while since I have posted any.
-Max

maxwellwhothunk

10-10-2005, 08:51 PM

The amount of hours depends on the state, the industry of the job, and whether or not its a school week or even if school is in session.

I think farm jobs are the ones where you can work the most per week legally, but depending on your area they might be hard to find... lol

Brock Fluharty

10-10-2005, 08:53 PM

I do not want to get a retro kit, becasue I do not know how to make/get a custom hood, what parts to buy...etc. Do all stores let you work at 13 with parent consent and only a few hours?

icereefer

10-10-2005, 08:58 PM

I agree with Max , it all depends on the state your living in , here in ND you need to get a permit, and I believe when schools going you only can work like 2 hrs a day, during the off school seasons like 5 hrs and farm work it's up to 5 to 7 hrs a day.

maxwellwhothunk

10-10-2005, 08:59 PM

I am sure that you can find a place that might hire you, just start asking places if they will hire someone of your age, etc.

I still think that you are better off using some DIY plans and building a hood, and installing your own stuff, thats the best way to learn how to do it... just dive in. I built mine in about 6 hours, after about 1 hour at the local Home Depot, no plans in hand, just measurements.

Its really easy, if you can screw in a nail and cut some wood, you can do it too, I would, if I were you, research DIY Hood plans online and start considering that route, as it may be your best route.

DIY is great for tight budgets, I will have a DIY Ca Reactor soon, for about $250 including an electric solenoid for the CO2 tank, and a Ph level monitor that will control the CO2 solenoid.

icereefer

10-10-2005, 09:01 PM

plus it would be some good father and son time together , building your own canopy, there Ideas all over the internet.

Brock Fluharty

10-10-2005, 09:05 PM

wait...do you guys mean the wooden think that rests on top of your tank? or the actual thing the lightbulbs screw into?

maxwellwhothunk

10-10-2005, 09:06 PM

THe wooden thing

Brock Fluharty

10-10-2005, 09:08 PM

OOOOoooohhhh...that wouldn't be too hard...why do I need a different one? I was thinking open top...I have one that my uncle made himself. That sounds fun...I thought you meant make a lighting fixture lol.

maxwellwhothunk

10-10-2005, 09:14 PM

http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/diyhoodcanopylighting/
http://www.myfishtank.net/forum/archive/index.php/f-8.html A bunch of DIY articles

Ok here are a few things that i found, these ones aren't great, its just that i dont have the energy to look for more than that

icereefer

10-10-2005, 09:27 PM

heres 2 of mine I built on file.this is my 40 gal pendent I built, Page 6 threw 8. http://www.coralforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4545&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=75

and this is my canopy that hosts my VHO's in my 37 gal.

Reefnut Shop

10-10-2005, 09:29 PM

Quite frankly, NO, t5 will not be enough, unless you have a very wide shallow tank, if you want all of the corals to grow in an enviorment that they will be fine growing in, you will need something brighter, and have the light loving corals at the top progressivly moving downwards for the mushroom species. T5 might suit your needs for now, but as soon as you start adding to that population you will need to change, or be very decisive on what you buy/put in your tank.

I totally disagree. A 8x54w T5, 4x96w PC, or 4x110w VHO would be great for all of your corals mentioned (sand the elegance, they are not doing well in any tanks right now and really should not be purchased) provided you add at least a moderate amount of liverock (maybe halfway up the tank or so). There really are no high light requiring corals on your list, and I would feel comfortable keeping any softie or LPS, and even a few SPS species like monti-caps, etc....but obviously yes they would have to be "higher" in the tank because of the lack of punch through water by flourescents. Keep the mushrooms and lower light polyps in the lower 1/3 and the leathers and LPS in the upper 2/3 and you would be fine.

There is no "need" for MH for your list, it would only be an aesthetic improvement with the ripple effect from this type of lighting.

Specifically about your list, the only changes (adding or subtracting) would be based more on available placement to avoid aggression, etc. as the corals grow.

maxwellwhothunk

10-10-2005, 09:51 PM

Here we are again getting in a watt per watt argument in some ways, I agree that T5s are not the way to go because of their all too low life expectancy, and in all honesty, I think that they would make a nice supplement to any aquarium if they resolved the expectancy. But for the main light source, you need to pile the t5s on top of each other.

The smaller the diameter tube the closer you are coming to a point source of light, and if you are getting roughly the same output as another light fixture that is 2x the wattage and 2x the diameter, then I would say yes, light tanks with it and only it, but you are decreasing the lamp diameter, increasing heat and therefore power as well, only to have what we started with... VHO... Idk why you would want to go down that route given the track record of these T5s.

icereefer

10-10-2005, 10:02 PM

I'm thinking he's just pointing out options if you look he has 8x54watt, I know that would steer me away from getting them?
in all honesty, Flourescents are flourescents, and if your looking at the I want more watts for the length, VHO's have it .

maxwellwhothunk

10-10-2005, 10:04 PM

Agreed, oh, and lower heat levels... by far.

maxwellwhothunk

10-10-2005, 10:20 PM

Ok, so Brock and I were discussing options via AIM and I remembered this http://aquarium.union.rpi.edu/articles/DIY_MH.html

has anyone tried this before (other than the writer himself?) and does it look/work as good as it claims?

icereefer

10-10-2005, 10:30 PM

as in what? that he's talking about the iwasaki Bulb ?

Brock Fluharty

10-10-2005, 10:31 PM

The iwasaki bulb is the 6500K MH bulb. Optimum coral growth.

maxwellwhothunk

10-10-2005, 10:34 PM

yes but with the mercury vapor ballast

icereefer

10-10-2005, 10:47 PM

yeah I can believe that.
with the Iwasaki 65k you need a probe start magnetic ballast like a M58.

maxwellwhothunk

10-10-2005, 10:58 PM

http://catalog.graybar.com/servlet/BugsEye but is a Mercury Vapor ballast probe start. this is where my knowlegde on lights dies off.

caseyjaydarling

10-10-2005, 11:01 PM

sounds too good to be true

Brock Fluharty

10-11-2005, 07:29 PM

Ok, this thread is starting to get a little out of hand, and I just wanted some ideas on lighting. I have decided to go with a MH retrofit kit. I am going to be adjusting my hood to accomodate them. 12 inches above water right? here is my shopping list...

2 x 6500K MH bulbs
2 mogul sockets
2 x mercury vapor ballast
2 x aluminum reflector
1 2/3 wire about 20 ft.
wire lugs
3 prong plug
metal enclosure, such as a fuse box

This thread is now, dead! Die thread! *stabs thread with very pointy stick*

let's move on now. I have made my decision, and i'm going to stick with it (if the parents ok it...)

caseyjaydarling

10-11-2005, 08:17 PM

Seriously guys, Brock's profile says he's 13. I don't think he wanted to listen to an argument between two adults when all he was looking for was some simple advice from some nice people.
Brock---I hope your MH setup works well for you, good luck!

icereefer

10-11-2005, 09:04 PM

I agree, I split part of this post here is the post if you, need to keep on it but be good. :-D http://www.coralforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=62072#62072

Reefnut Shop

10-12-2005, 08:33 PM

Sorry Brock, my intent was to provide you with accurate information so you could make a real decision. It's tough to decide where to draw the line when you know that people are being misled. I was hoping for 1-2 posts and that it would end, but it didn't.

I suppose the last best thing I can say is purchase what you want, and if you feel like your are breaking the bank you may be overspending. Your wish list is a pretty hardy group of corals you can enjoy on a student's pocketbook (of mowing lots of lawns :wink: ).