HELP WOTH CORALLINE ALGAE!!!

[hlama]

hello guys and girls.

i have some questions about growing coralline algae. let me give you the low down on my tank. it is a 72x18x20H tank.(approx. 115gal) have a 45gal sump. (total water volume is 150gal measure at startup). useing mericle mud. just added red gracilaria about a week or 2 ago. had 100lbs of fully cured rock during the last 2 months just added 65lbs of fresh live rock not cured with mostly green coralline and some red coralline.(hate the green). the new rock had been packaged and sent from indonesia i think maybe else where has been sitting about 2 weeks in the box all wraaped an still little damp(its tonga rock). placed the rock work so water flow moves through/within all the rock work. i have two pumps for my sump return a 1200gph and a 600gph(plus one 145gph powerhead in the refugium with a streamer bar to keep the gracilaria tumbling). in the main tank i have 3-300gph powerheads placed all around the tank(set up to grow coralline not looks will change once coralline is extablished).
the only animals in the tank are: 1 blue damsel, 4 green chromis, 1 eletric blue herrmit, 2 zebra hermits and 1 mex. red leg hermit.(plus many pods and thing) i am useing 2-40watt t12 lights atinics only. i did the tooth brush scrubbing thing on the red algae to spread it. my Ca+ is 410 and my Dkh is 11 currently will add more ca+ chlorinde to raise the Ca+ to 460 will let ride till dkh and Ca+ are at 430/8-9dkh. all other stuff is at correct levels.(temp 79)

my question is since the new rock was out of the water for 2 weeks, given a freshwater wash down and light brush scub to remove noticeable dead things, did the coralline live through all that.

will the crabs eat the new coralline growing.(i just found out about the mex. hermit loving new coralline). worried about it turnning grey. if i ever see the mex. red leg hermit i will remove him.

how long, about, will it take for coralline to establish some good growth on the old rock. will be doing 10gal water changes every 3-5days for next month. not useing a protien skimmer. will use carbon for 10 hours a week for 1 month. i think the coraline needs more light for faster growth. i am getting what will be the tank lights in about 4 months. in the meantime will the current lighting be good enough to allow some good growth in during the next 4 months time.

what can i do to get the red coralline to out grow the green

[DizziDezi2]

mmm...coralline doesnt like intense lights- but they also dont like no light add some light to the actincs. Salinty a little higher then normal say 1.026 may help. You can also add a peice of live rock with the colors htat you want already on it and use a toothbrush to spread it a bit. PH should be around 8.4ish. There are also supplements you can buy that are supposed to help- look at your lfs.

[FishinInTheDark]

I have never heard of hermit crabs eating coralline algae. I wouldn't worry about that.

It is not necessary to elevate your calcium, but getting the calcium and alkalinity in balance is what really gets coralline growing. This chart (http://www.coralforum.com/kb.php?mode=article&k=51) will help. If you really want to kick it up, get your magnesium around 1290.

If you're seeing any color in the coralline algae that is on the rock you have now, it should still be alive. It goes white pretty quickly when it's dead.

As stated, coralline doesn't mind low light, so just get your Ca/Alk/Mg in balance and sit back. It will grow. Pretty soon, you'll be cursing the stuff as you have to squint through it to see into the tank, knowing it's time to scrape, and wondering why you ever worried about it in the first place! :wink:

I agree with FITD, lots of good solid info there. As stated before, coralline algae doesnt like or need intense lighting. My vat of live rock has just a 10.00 T-8 shop light courtesy of Home Depot that ha 2 x 48" T-8 Blue Moon bulbs and I get excellent results on the 200 lbs of live rock currently in that vat now. I do keep the Calcium a bit high for a SW tank, slightly elevated mangnesium and stronium, good alk levels and low nitrates. Other than that it comes down to having pateints and "doing time". On completely dead rock its taking a good 6-9 months to get excellent coverage and on live rock thats pretty bare its taking about 4-6 months to get 75% plus coverage of coralline algae.

[hlama]

great info thanks. i dont check my Mg but am using tropic marin Ca+ and doing a 5 gal water change daily for the next couple of weeks using instant ocean salt mix. do you think this will be good enough to keep my Mg good??

Im sure it will be plenty good, although not really neccessary. The calcium though definitely will.

[hlama]

nice thanks doing the water changes more for toxic water than Mg+. the Mg+ in it is just a nice little bounus(one less thing to worry about) thanks for all the info everyone very helpful.

[Sugar Magnolia]

The premixed IO that I buy tests at 1110 ppm for magnesium, too low. You want to keep it up around 1250-1300 ppm.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.htm

[DizziDezi2]

[quote="FishinInTheDark"]I have never heard of hermit crabs eating coralline algae. I wouldn't worry about that.

I disagree- I think they do eat coralline- even though I have had several people tell me they dont- Ive sit and watched it disappear after they pick at it. I think some types do- my blue and black legged hermits def. do- my scarlets leave it alone.

[FishinInTheDark]

Thanks for the information, Dezi. That's something I love about this hobby: there's no end to what you can learn!

[hlama]

here is a link i found about the hermits. http://saltaquarium.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geocities.com%2F CapeCanaveral%2FHangar%2F6279%2FRaiseCementRock.ht ml here is one paragragh from this(its a long article)
"Using algae eaters such as tangs, snails, amphipods and copepods can be helpful also. You need to keep the hair algae at bay so the coralline algae can take hold and grow. Small blue legged hermit crabs or scarlet hermit crabs are included by some also. Red legged hermit crabs from the Sea of Cortez, although fairly efficient cleaners, like to eat the faster growing types of soft coralline algae and have been totally or partially excluded from some commercial coralline rock growing systems for this reason. I get letters from people who are adding the above supplements to speed the growth of coralline algae and it still doesn't grow! Too often the mystery of the missing coralline turns out to be the use of too many red legged hermit crabs. This results in the rocks ending up with a dull gray-green look which is easy to identify once you've seen it a few times. I can get better coralline algae growth by simply using only CaribSea aragonite sand and no coralline eaters, than the person who uses all the additives above and is hooked on using coralline eaters. Or if you are in a real hurry to grow good coralline algae, you can get the very fastest growth by eliminating the coralline algae eaters and also adding some of the above supplements".
i think i just got a little paranoid when i foud out about the hermit. i only have one. not sure about the others but total of 4 crabs.

here are a couple more sections in the article.
"*****(The reef aquariums above are all dosed with the same top rated additives to provide trace elements, vitamins, calcium, magnesium, strontium, and elevated pH and KH. These are ideal conditions for growing coralline algae! Puzzled??? What else do these reef tanks have in common? They each have a good number of Mexican red leg blue spot hermit crabs which not only help clean the tanks of undesirable algae, but also eat coralline algae. The hermit crab Clibanarius digueti from the Mexico area is a coralline algae eater, and is only one of many varieties of hermit crabs called "red leg hermit crabs". Two of the "red leg" hermit crabs from the Sea of Cortez, AKA Gulf of California, have big appetites for coralline algae, C. digueti is the most common one sold.*****"
"ABOVE: Valerie Miller's tank-raised "xenia forest", shown about 6 months before this article was written. It has GROWN since this picture! There are four types of xenia shown above in her 75-gallon reef tank. Also note: The large concrete rock is kept nearly clean of coralline algae, looking dull gray-green. Other rocks are lacking in really good coralline growth too, a classic sign that certain hermit crabs are present which eat more coralline than you might like them to. Coralline would normally be quite obvious and starting to flourish on new concrete rock by the end of two months in a reef tank like this rock has been. The other tank-raised rocks are a year old. Coralline growth is still somewhat lacking, even with just a modest number of Mexican red leg blue spot hermit crabs present (C. digueti) which are cleaning the rock of alga, including coralline algae. In the past six months the number of hermits has decreased due to natural die-off and cannibalism. The pink, mauve and purple coralline algae is growing better now. In another test I performed, I put two small uncured concrete rocks in two HANDY Reef tanks with identical dosing and care. One tank had a very modest number of C. digueti hermit crabs in it and the other tank had none. The concrete rock in the tank with none of these hermits became almost totally covered in coralline on top and sides within just 2.5 months! The new concrete rock in the other tank, with C. digueti hermits, was still struggling to grow coralline algae, with very little coverage of coralline algae even after 6 months! The gray concrete changed colors, to a dominant gray-green look, like the picture above. The C. digueti hermits tend to keep new rocks cleaned of coralline algae the best. Another interesting observation was made. As expected and often observed elsewhere the coralline growing on the glass of the tank with C. digueti hermits was slightly less dense than in the tank without these hermits which had much more coralline already growing everywhere since there were no coralline "preditors" present. Remember, the more coralline in a tank the faster it spreads to new rocks and the glass. The coralline growing on the glass of the tank with the hermits eventually grew so thick that the hermits were finally able to climb the coralline covered glass and start stripping it too! All of this should come as no surprise since these hermits have been extensively observed to eat coralline algae in addition to their diet of snails and even coral polyps. They are omnivores of course and this should also be no surprise. In live rock farming it is critical to NOT include certain hermit crabs which eat coralline algae like candy. Claims to the contrary should be a red flag as to the honesty or knowledge of such claimants. "

hope this helps with the crab thing. thanks again for everything guys. i think i have a hold on it now.wil let you know how it turns out.

[FishinInTheDark]

Claims to the contrary should be a red flag as to the honesty or knowledge of such claimants. "


Well, I can attest to my honesty, but always learning! :-D I enjoyed those snippets. Thanks!

[hlama]

didn't mean to direct that at you. you have been very helpful and not at all full of yourself. put that out for an F.Y.I. the last line was part of the paragraph sorry if it seemed like an attack. it was not. thanks again for all the info.

[FishinInTheDark]

No, I wasn't insulted! All's well! :wink:

This is a interesting thread... I would have said the same thing Conni did before reading that article. Learn something new everyday...

[hlama]

just an update. thanks for the help everyone. i have coraline starting to really grow now. many colors. purple real dark and a lighter kind , orange, pink, darker red, lime green, flourescent green and turquoise. all these are growing with the 2 40watt T12 lights, one atinic and one 20000k day light, both are coralife bulbs. never did add Mg. just keeping the Ca+ at 430ish and dkh at 9-10. still have not yet got the flash disk to up load pic. but well be soon. the tanks been going 3.5 months now. still only 5 chromis and removed all but one zerbra crab. getting couple snails today. will keep you guys updated when i get the flashdisk to upload pics.

[icereefer]

good to hear soulds like things are coming along.
jim

[Doctor_Reef]

Wonderful...glad to hear that and looking forward to seeing some pictures...

[MikeS]

Coralline growth is still somewhat lacking, even with just a modest number of Mexican red leg blue spot hermit crabs present (C. digueti) which are cleaning the rock of alga, including coralline algae. In the past six months the number of hermits has decreased due to natural die-off and cannibalism.

Hmmm...I'm going to remain skeptical on this claim. :-D The large majority of the makeup of coralline algale is mineral in nature, ie calcuim carbonates, magnesium, ect...I find it difficult to believe that these algaes would have much nutritional value at all for a hermit crab. There are of course organisims that feed on coralline like limpets and urchins, but I believe these animals are able to use and/or need the minerals...limpets grow shells, urchins have a calcium skeleton, ect. Sure, the hermit has an exoskeleton, but if it is consuming coralline through a need for these minerals, then why is it only observed in certain species, and not all of them? Something else is occuring here....

Here are some other possibilites...the hermits could appear to be consuming the coralline while acutally they are picking through it for other organisims. Coralline will cover lots of different things...I have lots of tube worms and such covered with it in my tank, and I have also seen diatoms and such grow on the surface of coralline...perhaps something like this was the target and not the coralline iteself. This could lead to a case of appearing gulity, much like people who find bristleworms eating an already dead snail or fish and assume the bristle worm was the cause of mortality.

In the past six months the number of hermits has decreased due to natural die-off and cannibalism.

I find this statement interesting as well. Die-off and cannibalism in six months? In five years I have not experienced that with my hermits....sounds to me like he is possibly not feeding his tank well enough to support the number of hermits in there in the first place. That could explain many things...maybe in an underfed system hermits may possibly search out alternate forms of nourishment that they normally wouldn't as a last resort....

I'm going to need a little more evidence than what the author was able to present before I'll buy the story that hermits eat coralline as a matter of course... :-D

MikeS

[hlama]

actualy since i first found that i have heard of it a few more times. who knows but i did remove all the crabs from my other tank and boom i have coraline. that tank has been going for 3 years. this one i dont think was effected. thats just my personal experiance. for me i dont think i need any crabs. after looking into it i really believe you dont need them at all.

[MikeS]

for me i dont think i need any crabs. after looking into it i really believe you dont need them at all.

This is probably true. The list of reef safe crabs is a pretty short one anyway... :-D

Mike

[icereefer]

yeah crabs in #'s is actually not good in a reef system, crabs are 24 hrs a day eating mechines. there diet is what ever.
I keep a few in my tank and they move threw my tank slow and pick around here and there I know some of my friends that have lots in there tanks and they run around there tanks in frantic all day looking for food and after a while you'll see them fighting, and take out new coral growth.
and start taking food from the other critters that need to eat.
crabs in general have high metabolisms and need to eat all the time, see most hermits don't live on the reefs they live mostly on sand beds scavenging for anything. there like a goat if all they had to eat was a tin can they probably would eat it...lol.
Jim

[hlama]

yeah dam goats will eat the cloths right off your back. i will be getting 2 crabs though. the zebra hermit already in there and a eletric blue hermit. just because i like there look. but thats it for 165lbs of rock.

[mojoreef]

[/quote]Hmmm...I'm going to remain skeptical on this claim. The large majority of the makeup of coralline algale is mineral in nature, ie calcuim carbonates, magnesium, ect...I find it difficult to believe that these algaes would have much nutritional value at all for a hermit crab. [quote]
Coralline algae is feed upon by a number of different species. It also entices critter ssuch as chitons, stars and so on to lay larvae on it. This would probibly seem like an "All you can eat Buffet" to a crab??


Mike

[MikeS]

Coralline algae is feed upon by a number of different species. It also entices critter ssuch as chitons, stars and so on to lay larvae on it. This would probibly seem like an "All you can eat Buffet" to a crab??

Mike

sure, but do you think the hermits are actually eating the coralline? Or just picking other goodies off of it?

Mike

[mojoreef]

Most critters like that, pretty much eat the whole thing (algae included) to get what they want and then poop out what doesnt work for them. Kinda like a worm swallowing sand as it feeds in a sand bed and the just consuming the bacteria and pooping out the sand.
So I would say it not inconcievable at all


Mike

[DKWICK]

I had coraline too and my hermits ate it. I removed them it started to grow back. I think there is some truth to it as I saw it for my own eyes too.