DT or Dk phytoplankton

[shellydp34]

Ok, I have a bottle of this that is 3/4 full but it smells funny. The exp date isnt until 6/2005. Does it generally last or does it go bad quickly. I have had it for a couple of months and went on vac for 2 weeks and now it smells.

How can I tell if it is bad or if the smell is normal? I hate to trash it because it was so pricey

[Condiman]

It usually lasts 4 months. But if it smells funny then it has gone bad early. Sometimes it dose that.

[Condiman]

If it smells sweet or an ocean smell it is good anything other then that it is bad. That is the reason why I culture my own. That way I always know it is fresh. If you would like some of mine I would be glad to share with you.

[shellydp34]

Ok, then its bad because it doesnt smell like ocean unless were talking dead ocean. And thats bad because they charge an arm and a leg for that stuff and I think it lasted 2 months (on top of the fact that they sold it to me for my anenome I got from them - that doesnt eat it and that died). Anyway thats a different story.

I was feeding it to my tank after the death of the anenome. I knew my corals would like it.

Condiman, how do you culture your own? I appreciate your offer to share but does it last during shipping?

[Sugar Magnolia]

The bottle needs to be shaken daily to keep the phytoplankton in suspension. If not, they settle to the bottom and smother with the weight of the settled critters. Smushed phytoplankton=dead phytoplankton=really bad smell. HTH!

[FishinInTheDark]

Good advice, SM. Thanks for sharing that.

[shellydp34]

I'm sure that is what happened. The bottle did state to invert but I was unsure how important that was. Evidentally it was very important. My mistake then.... Thanks SM.

That also is something to look for when buying the DTs. Look to see how much is settled and stuck on the bottom of the bottle... if it doesn't shake up with a reasonable shake... find a new bottle.

[mojoreef]

Something else to beware of is that is that corals dont eat Phytoplankton. So if you are feeding it to them, you are basically just pouring Phosphates into your tank


Mike

That's not true... there are many corals that feed on phytoplankton, and just as important it is food to many small critters. Live phytoplankton, being a plant... will also feed on phosphates.

Although one should be careful not to overfeed... I would disagree that we are just pouring phosphates into the tank.

[mojoreef]

Phytoplankton is free floating algae, its matrix is almost pure Phosphates and no corals feed on it my friend. It will feed a few small critters along with some dusters, gorgonians, scallops and young clams. All of which will also feed on detritus (waste/food biproducts) If you have some of the critters I listed then using it to feed them is a good plan. If not then you ar just adding nutrients to a systems that is in a constant battle against nutrients.

If you have some information on which coral you believe feeds on Phytoplankton I would love to view it.


take care


Mike

[Condiman]

http://coralforum.com/album_pic.php?pic_id=157
There is a link to my culture setup. It is quite easy to do. I have shipped phyto in the past with excellent results.

"Some of the reef animals can feed directly on phytoplankton; many soft corals, some sponges, almost all clams, feather-duster worms, and other filter feeders utilize phytoplankton directly as a food source. Small animals in the water column, termed zooplankton, also utilize phytoplankton as a food source. For the smaller zooplankton, phytoplankton and bacteria are the primary food source."

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-07/eb/index.htm

I'll find other references if I can. Finding specific information from a reliable source on the net can be challenging.

Now, what do you mean by its "matrix". Is that the culturing and bottling process they use for the DTs?? It would seem to me that if they are truly "alive", they would feed on the phosphates... not add them. To be honest I know nothing about how this stuff is made though??

In my sps tank I feed DTs lightly strictly for the micro organizums... because sps corals do not feed on phytoplankton. I went though a stage where I was feeding phytoplankton and seen an explosion of pods. I decided to stop the phytoplankton and just stick to the meaty foods and seen a major decline in pods... so I have recently started feeding phytoplankton again. The sps tank is very nutrient poor... not a lot of waste floating around.

In the 55g with softies I was assuming atleast some of the softies was utilizing the phytoplankton but again also feed for the micro organisms. I stopped feeding DTs as in the 110g and seen a less decline but a decline all the same of pods. So again, I'm feeding again.

Both tanks gets about 1/2 of the DT's starting recommended dosing... they say double it after xx days but I decided to stay where I was.

[Sugar Magnolia]

I do the same Travis, about 1/2 the recommended doasage.

[mojoreef]

Hiya Travis, good post.

I have read Eric's articles, Actually I have spent many an hour with Eric in my home asking the same question I posed to you. The answer is always thier is no proof or study that shows that corals feed on phyto. I should rephrase that, thier are one or two corals (dendro's and goniopora) that have shown that they will ingest it, but the same study shows that it is unknow if they can actually digest it.
Here is what I am trying to say my friend. ALL corals eat detritus, in our reef tanks by nature we have an over abundance of detritus, this ditritus is saturated with bacteria and simular trying to reduce it. This has been scientifically proven in hundreds of studies. Unless you have specific critters in your tank that can use it (for sure) then the addition of phyto plankton is just adding to the bioload. Some folks say they like to use t because it feeds zooplankton, which do feed on phyto. This is true, but zoo also feeds on detritus in the same fashion.
Let me see if I can offer some ansters for you.
Now, what do you mean by its "matrix". Is that the culturing and bottling process they use for the DTs?? It would seem to me that if they are truly "alive", they would feed on the phosphates... not add them. To be honest I know nothing about how this stuff is made though??

Matrix is the make up of the phyto. When they are hatched and grown they are feed nutrients, Phosphates being the main one. The phyto will not continue to grow in your tank, they might multiply but are usually eaten or die off. Once this happens they release all of what makes them up. The main thing that ends up getting the phyto is bacteria, when phyto is added they will bloom with the new food source offered them, when it is used up they will also die off, moving thier population back down to what the normal tank food source is. The nutrient released by the bloom die off then becomes foods for other algaes. This is a normal phosphate cycle (animal to algae).
In my sps tank I feed DTs lightly strictly for the micro organizums... because sps corals do not feed on phytoplankton. I went though a stage where I was feeding phytoplankton and seen an explosion of pods. I decided to stop the phytoplankton and just stick to the meaty foods and seen a major decline in pods... so I have recently started feeding phytoplankton again. The sps tank is very nutrient poor... not a lot of waste floating around.
Ahh SPS type corals have a few means by which to feed. As you know 98% (or thier abouts) comes from thier internal zoox algae. the balance is made up by direct absorbsion of nutrients through thier tissue And/or capture of bacterial plankton through the use of slime netting. If I were you and you wish to have a good pod population I would do it in an auxilery tank that you can control more in regards to nutrients, and not subject the main system to that. Then just harvest to bugs and feed them to the tank.
Phyto will definately feed reducing critters, such as bacteria and simular. But balance is critical. We all want bacteria an small critters to take care of our ever growing waste/detritus (nutrient) problems, but feeding them directly does not serve that purpose. Bacteria populations will swell and ebb to the amount of food that is available to them. In your tank with out the phyto thier populations will be in relationship to the ammount of food available, a good situation for filtration. Feeding phytoplanton when not needed for specific critters will just increase their populations to an artifical level which will then make their populations in a state of flux. This flus will create blooms and die off's, and thus release the nutrients held as organic phosphate into inorganic.

Travis I do understand your reasoning, and by all means do what you feel is best. Personally If it is the zooplankton or pods or simular (which are viable to a reef tank) that you are ultimately after, then you should try to grow and culture them elsewhere and import them to your tank. Making your main system the culturing station has very large draw backs. In our constant battle with nutrients, adding more is costly.


Anyway just food for thought


mike

[MikeS]

good thread you guys...I'm moving this to the advanced forum...

Mike

Interesting... you do have several good points!! I have found mixed reports or writings it but even in Eric's books he makes the statement that many soft corals feed on phyto directly. So is this is "assumption", has new developments been made or has his opinions changed??

Actually I have spent many an hour with Eric in my home asking the same question I posed to you.

If you were trying to make me jealous... it worked. :razz: :)

[mojoreef]

Eric is a great guy and a great hobbist and really funny after a few bottles of wine. The studies are still the same Mike and dont lie, some one you look at the references sited perhaps?? lol

Heres the bottom line. It has been studied to death and proven that corals all eat detritus/waste and the bacteria/plankton associated with them. All tanks have detrius/waste in abundance along with the bacteria. If you wanting to make sure that your corals are fed, then making sure the detritus is in the water column and available to them is paramount. If you have critters (dendro's, scallops, juvinile clams, gergonians) that need phyto then by all means make it available to them. If you wish to promote some form of culturing of microscopic creatures (zooplankton, newkon and so on) that could also feed your corals I would suggest that you do it remotely so that you dont not subject your tank to the large fluxes in population and the resulting nutrient loading.

Every ones tank is their tank, and how they want to go about it is up to them. I have no problem with folks that run huge DSB's, refugiums, no skimmer, keep the tank at 86, a feed like a bat out of hell. All I want to make sure of is that they know the whole story, from their all the power to them.

Bet you didnt know that Eric runs a big skimmer and a ton of Ozone did ya Mike??? Ohhhh the bugss.... the humanity.....LOL

Always good talking reef with ya all.


Mike

It has been studied to death and proven that corals all eat detritus/waste and the bacteria/plankton associated with them.

Where can we go to find such studies?? Honestly it sounds to me like it is still out for debate and no definitive information exists... one way or the other. I mean really, what is detrius/waste other than dead plant and animal matter.

[mojoreef]

Travis any google search should show you some good scientific studies, Check on the link you provided. Instead of looking at the authors conclusions, check the references.
That is exactly what detritus is along with other organic and inorganic properties. In the scientific community they classify all this material as marine snow.
Here is a couple quotes from an author you referenced
I have witnessed the widespread belief that phytoplankton are unicellular plants that are consumed by corals, and that the addition of phytoplankton comprises a newly discovered beneficial supplement for reef aquariums. Unfortunately, that belief is largely erroneous
What eats phytoplankton? In the water column, zooplankton are without question the primary consumers of phytoplankton. Zooplankton grazers vary according the area and the time of year, but include primarily ciliates, copepods, amphipods, and tintinnids. Protozoans and some invertebrate larvae are the primary consumers of nanoplankton with copepods and amphipods consuming the larger phytoplankton size classes.
Here is the key problem where I think its been made a little muddy. From the same article.
While some studies have indicated that some stony corals are capable of clearing phytoplankton from the water, these experiments have not been rigorous (Wilkinson et al. 1988, Szmant-Froelich and Pilson 1984, Sorokin 1981, 1995).
Notice exactly what it says and what it doesnt. In the actual studies it reads. Tank number 124 containing stoney coral X, Vile number 127 believed to contain phytoplankton Y was added. After a period of 24 hours thier was a noticeable decrease in the Phytoplankton. But no consumsion or digestion was noted.
From this one can say oh yea they eat it. or one could say the zooplankton, bacteria and or sponges eat it, because thier was none found digested.
Anyway most scientific studies in regards to feeding always refer to Sorokin, its kind of the bible on corals and reef ecology. He experimented with tons of corals from hard to soft and with all available foods in the reefs. Again all the studies were done as I discribed above. He even subjected all the corals individually to mixes of zoo and phyto planktons. In that study he states that it was unknown if the coral reduced the phyto or if the zooplankton did.
When he and several others did experiments in the wild checking the gut contents of Scleractinia corals (hard corals) no phytoplankton was found. In gut content testing on soft corals they found that 9% of the gut content was Plant and the balance was animal. Of the 9 % only 1% was phytoplankton, the rest of the vegal food was algael fragments and plant hair.

Anyway here is the article

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-10/eb/

Mike

[MikeS]

Bet you didnt know that Eric runs a big skimmer and a ton of Ozone did ya Mike??? Ohhhh the bugss.... the humanity.....LOL



I've been staying out of this one Mojo, just reading... :lol:

Mike

Ok, so really what it boils down to is phyto does not have a great impact on "most" corals (soft or hard) directly. The best benifit one could hope for would come indirectly.

I will say with what you have posted and some other thing I looked up that I was wrong earlier in this post. Although I do still see the benifit of adding DTs (ie Feeding Micro Critters), the DTs themselfs do not seem to feed most corals directly.

[mojoreef]

Pretty much Travis, But in the same breathe thier is not any of these micro critters that wont feed off of detritus/waste also. In a reef tank we have no real chance tomimic mother nature, the food web and scale are just way out of our reach, plus you loose control over the equation. If one concentrates on water quality we have a shot here.
If we have a critter that requires a special food type then isolate the food to just it and make sure you have the filtration to remove the exess. If one wants to add another viable food source say like zooplankton, no problem I would just culture them else where and then introduce them as needed.

Hey MIke I love the avatar and sig, thanks I think I will keep it, hehehe
take care


Mike

I agree with what you're saying... but I like my bugs :-D. I really don't see any problem adding a reasonable amount of DTs or the like to help build up the critter population. As you have said, to each his own 8).

I would caution everyone though, DTs as with any additive of this type can and will add to the nutrient levels in the tank. One needs to watch their levels to insure what they are adding is not polluting the tank.

[MikeS]

Hey MIke I love the avatar and sig, thanks I think I will keep it, hehehe
take care


Mike

Glad ya like it mojo...I'm here to help... :lol:

Mike

[Condiman]

From what I have read I may have to rethink my own setup for dosing phyto. I have noticed an increase in pods in my setup but I have not seen a signifigant change in my growth rate of my corals since I have started dosing phyto. As Travis has said "I like my bugs" I also do like seeing my pods but if that is the only change that I have seen then for my setup it isnt quite nessicary. I would like to thank all of you for helping me make my decision.

[mojoreef]

I here ya Travis, as with everything moderation is always best.

Condiman you know if you are culturing your own phyto its not a reall big set to take it to rotifers. If you just took the process a little bit farther I think you would notice more of a difference.

Mike

[shellydp34]

That is too, the only real difference I noticed... more pods. But I do like them for my Mandarin.

[romunov]

Search various scientific journals and as previously suggested, check reference. A good article has them always listed. ;)