SPS coloration

[MoonSoft]

Let me start by saying that I am no Marine biologist, and I have dug deep to find out all of the information I can on this subject. SPS corals have for a long time been the Trophy of captive reef keeping, it is assumed that those that can keep these corals are "experts" I can say only that this is simply not true, these like any other coral are just not understood entirely or there is not enough hard research out there that people can get their hands on. After digging deep within the Marine biologists plethora of information and some vendors I have put together some information on the how and why of coloration

Coloration was long thought to be attributed to the Zooxanthellae that live inside the corals soft tissues above the coral skeleton, and that providing intense lighting would suffice to nourish the coral and keep the bright colors we expect to see in these corals. Pigmentation of corals is NOT just from the zooxanthellae, which are normally brown; these pigments consist of other nutrients cartenoids, vitamins, which are either present in the coral from uptake or part of the zooxanthellae processes. In any event coloration is mainly provided by chemical compounds rather than totally biological. This is still a hot area of debate.

Given that zooxanthellae are normally brown one would surmise that feeding just the zooxanthellae light would entice the coral to focus on the zooxanthellae and not the uptake of chemical compounds or vitamins for nutrition. Maybe this explains the browning of corals in captivity, being masked by the colors of zooxanthellae.

SPS corals major body component besides the skeleton are the "FEEDING POLYPS" these are responsible for nutrient vitamin and animal uptake. These animals voraciously consume Phytoplankton, and some may even consume some rotifers "zooplankton" It all depends on micron size of the food particle. Since some aquarists run UV sterilization or heavy foam fractioning it is expected that the corals food source is removed forcing it to derive nutrition from Light. So I ran a few experiments.

System Parameters:
Salinity-----1.025
Temp-------80.0F
PH----------8.3
Calcium----480mg/l
Phosphates-not detectable
Silicates-----not detectable
Ammonia--- traces
Nitrite------- traces
Nitrate-------traces
Total alk-----4.5mg/l
Borate alk---1.2mg/l
Carbonate alk 3.3mg/l

Keep in mind I have only had the set-up running for 4 months before stocking and the two fish and few crabs and snails are fed every other day minor amounts of brine shrimp, I dose the system to keep alk/ph at those parameters, and add Kent corral accel and coral vite as well as lugols every week and very small water changes 2 quarts per week then entire system is full of DI water and is topped of with DI water I have a 3" oolite sand bed and about 70lb's of live rock "too little"

Now I have 4 Acropora colonies and one montipora digitata
The colonies were purchased from a LFS who complained they were fading and were once purple and green. :(

So I decided to purchase them at a discounted price 30.00 per colony 4" WOW!!!!

I went and purchased some DT's phytoplankton that has
Nanochloropsis Oculata 2-3 microns
Nanochloropsis Salina 4-8 microns
Chlorella 5-12 microns

I turned off the pumps and skimmer for about 30 min and left the power sweep power head on, I dosed about 2 tsp of the stuff into the tank "target feeding" right after lights out "moonlights on" and waited. About 20 min went by and I noticed some real good polyp extension, then about 40 min later turned on the pumps and choked them back as I do for night and left the skimmer off for the night. I did this for about a week but started leaving the skimmer on as my O2 levels were starting to drop at night.

I noticed that those corals colors were coming back!!!! The tips starting to turn purple again!! Alright!! Here are some pics
http://moonsoftsystems.com/sitepics/acrofade.jpg

As you can see the polyp extension is awesome I took this pics after the lights had been off for about an hour after feeding and turned them on snapped a few pics then turned it back off some of the polyps are actually contracted NOT RETRACTED proving they ARE feeding! You can see the colors drab towards the center and how they are coming back along the tips

http://www.moonsoftsystems.com/sitepics/coralfade2.jpg

To close I have researched through some of Borneman's articles about coloration and his idea is that chemical dosing and feeding is more important than lighting this seems to support that theory, he also adds that temp salinity, alk are the most important parameters since they deliver the calcium and the glue that sticks the calcium together. Some buffers also contain some of the nonzooxanthellae pigment components which will help coloration.

I would like to offer my thanks for reading this and I hope it helps please feel free to post replies and comments or questions about this.. There is simply too much info to fit to make this a short readable article.

Sincerely,
Aaron Moon[hr:0a93527717]

Special thanks to various articles and published works by Eric Bornemen
and various advice from Marine biologists and hobbyists

[MoonSoft]

I have a table of the Specific colors and their components found inside of sps corals that are responsable for their colors if any one is interested i'll post it i will also be following up with some additives that may help to add more of these nutrients. After i experiment with them some more i dont think it's just zooplankton theres something else missing i beleive.

[gman0526]

Great post MoonSoft. Very useful info. Please post that table for us I believe everybody will be happy to at least read through it. And BTW great pics.

I agree with Gman, great article you have authored! Its sounded great from the text, to the pics and all. And please do keep us updated if this experiment is on going still as I would be very intreseted in further observations. And do post that table!

I am definitely a hardcore SPS freak and will happily take on board any information I can get that will help me grow them better and make them more colorful if possible. Sort of a "Info-Maniac" in this regard....

[MoonSoft]

Please understand that this is not my table it was taken from
Aquarium Corals
By: Eric Borneman

Most of these components are derived from various zooxanthellae processes melanin, is actually

"Melanin"
"a dark biological pigment (biochrome) found in skin, hair, feathers, scales, eyes, and some internal membranes; it is also found in the peritoneum of many animals (e.g., frogs), but its role there is not understood. Formed as an end product during metabolism of the amino acid tyrosine, melanins are conspicuous in dark skin moles of humans; in the black dermal melanocytes."

Remeber skin cancer.. i can assume that this component is chemical but affected by lighting since UV causes such problems in humans "skin cancer"

"cartenoids"
any of a group of nonnitrogenous yellow, orange, or red pigments (biochromes) that are almost universally distributed in living things. There are two major types: the hydrocarbon class, or carotenes, and the oxygenated (alcoholic) class, or xanthophylls. Synthesized by bacteria, fungi, lower algae, and green plants.

I could go on here is a link for more in-depth information
Plant Pigments and Photosynthesis (http://www-class.unl.edu/biochem/gp2/physiology/lessons/phys_ncp.html)

The table is as follows
http://www.moonsoftsystems.com/sitepics/table.jpg

[MikeS]

Very interesting....you should comprise all this into a single article we can add to our article section...

Mike

[MoonSoft]

Give me a few days an i will go ahead and do that

[Sugar Magnolia]

Great info Aaron, and the acros look outstanding. I've heard of others that have had success in bringing acros back from the brink as well.

[MoonSoft]

I dont recommend everyone jumping into this method blind, i have found that this type of advise is good for those of you comfortable enought to test it out, since each of our systems are different we cant assume this method works exactly but everyone i know of has had outstanding results. be sure that when you feed that you turn off the sump filter and leave the powerheads on, also it helps to do this at night when the polyps are out feeding, turn off the skimmers for about an hour then slowly power everything back on..

also remember that phytoplankton is in essence
Phosphate, and silicate
It's the building blocks of algae, but it's only harmfull if you are adding DEAD material, and still while it's alive it can be filtered out, but again DONT over feed, try a little at a time. I recommend Phytofeast, and some rotifers, Dt's is good stuff but it's hard to get fresh and it's about 1/2 the strength of Phytofeast.!!! trust me i know i gorw my own Algae!!! their stuff is Potent!!!!

[hydrahawk]

Aaron, great article you have here. I have always wonder about the pigmentations of the different SPS. My LFS always told people is having MH and adding iodine will bring the color out. I just find that is just not that simple.

You talked about some off-the-shelf microalgae that can be bought to feed the corals. How about additives? Do they help with the coloring of the SPS? I just bought a frag of bird nest (Seriatopora). When it came, it was a cream color. Now, 3 weeks later, some tips are beginning to show some pink, really faint. What I am dosing is Kent's essential elements, Strontium & Molybdenum, Iron, Tech M and Lugol's. I am also adding all of Ken'ts liquid food (PhytoPlex, ChromaPlex,...etc). Are these sufficient? What other off-the-shelf additives would you recommend to us?

[MoonSoft]

I would applaud the fact you are feeding invert food to the corals. What i hate about the off the shelf brands is that they tend to be DEAD material.... our corals thrive in an environment that has a massive source of live zoo and phytoplankton. Acropora are voracious eaters.. nearly 3/4 of their tissue mass is dedicated to the CAPTURE of planktonic material.

I now use some Home cultured rotifers (singles celled animals) NOT JUST ALGAE or "phytoplankton" Th corals i have seen come back seem to do so only after feeding them and providing them with the correct spectrum of light. these guys actually need UV radiation......some folks use the 20k halides.. but i recommend trying to find a specrograph of their bulbs.. you want to make sure it has good peak through the 400-420 NM spectrum.. thats rich photosynthetic light... also turn off the skimmers at night and cut back the pumps to a dull roar then feed at night or close to night. you will see the polyp extension become enhanced..... adding dead material can cause spikes in ammonia, nitrites and of coarse drop the alkalinity when the matter starts to decay in your filters...... i like Kent products but i use live products to feed my corals.... if you buy phytoplankton make them open it before you buy it... smell it.. it should smell SWEET!!! yes SICKLY SWEET...... you'll know if it's not cause it will smell like the effluent of your protiein skimmer like rotton eggs....(hydrogen sulfide) real sign that things are decaying without oxygen.... phytoplankton make oxygen so they should stay alive if stored about 3-5 degrees above freezing, they last about 4 months..

I use the Phytofeast, i have had GREAT success with it.. if you like you can get some through me. i have plenty on hand... otherwise ask your LFS to start carrying it instead of dt's... this stuff is 3 TIMES the density of dt's!!!!!!!!!!!

check out their site.. they have some started copapod cultures and starter rotifer cultures.. once you have one of these systems going you can start FARMING THE CORALS!!!!!!!! i have had un-parallelled success with this method!!!!!! always add LIVE FOOD!!!!!!!

i hope this has helped.....

Here are some NEW pictures of the corals above.

Stony corals are more carnivores... they will typically reject phytoplankton and other alga's. The DTs and Phytofeast will do little for them directly.

I feed mine golden pearl 5-50 microns and cyclop-eeze. Although I have been feeding for a few months now I have not seen any noticeable difference in the corals. Both growth, color and health are the same.

It is believed by many that all the nutrients sps corals require is provided by the tank. I still see the need to feed, especially in nutrient poor tanks but again I have seen little difference.

Long polyp extension at night is very normal. Most stonies extend their polyps at night to feed...

Nice writeup though!! It's nice to see someone putting this much research into their corals. I would recommend Aquarium Corals, Selection, Husbandry and Natural History by Eric H. Borneman. It's a great book with lots of info on stonies.

I'll also add, something I found facinating... Some of the blues, greens and pink fluorescent colors are produced by UV blocking Pigments or fluorescing proteins. Natural sun tan lotion :-D

Most of the other coloration is due to pigmentations in the zooxanthellae. These pigments and the overall coral color is effected by many things... alkalinity levels, nutrient, lighting, water quality, water flow, etc... basically their entire surroundings.

[MoonSoft]

As i stated before sorry i didn't in this forum.. if you have a refugium or are culturing your own rotifers as am i, you need to feed them phytoplankton, your rotifers (zooplankton) will not becom nutritional with out a broad diet. The reason i am talking strictly about this one product is that they also sell starter cultures of rotifers and copapods, home rotifer cultures are not very difficult to get going, i understand that SPS are thought to reject phytoplankton, but from what i see it seem adding this entices the corals to open up and feed EVEN durring the day.

Eric Borneman is a great aquarist, and yes i own that book ...WONDERFUL information , but for a self taught aquarist to say that SPS dont eat any phytoplankton ,makes me ask....... from what reasearch?????
When these authors add their passionate writings they dont generally use research studies to make their assumptions, or they use research from one source.

As i stated before i am NOT a BIOLOGIST, just an aquarist who has the fortune of working in and around a plethera of marine biologists, who research things like this all the time.. most of which are in Aquaculture.
I still have seen a very large improvement in coloration since i started feeding live rotifers enriched with Phytofeast. The metabolic processes that take place and the uptake of amino acids are components of the chemical pigmentation in the corals. if you look at melanin, which is responsible for most of the yellow to black colors it IS YES a UV resistant component. but dont forget the other components which are derived from DIET as your Eric borneman says in that very book
"Dietarily derived carotenoids, realted to Vitamin A, can produce bright red, oranges, and some yellow-orange coloration.

Woods hole university backs this up with research after listing the chemicals foun in corals that are responsable for the corals coloration. Of course there are other things as well.... but i wanted to focus on just the feed aspect of corals and coloration. which for me with my system has produced some starteling results.

[MoonSoft]

Zooxanthellae again is Bown to gold in color if they are responsable for all of the coloration explain the corals that when you break them apart the skeleton is colored?????? thats NOT zooxanthellae, those are Nonzooxanthellae pigmentation. read your eric borneman book

[MoonSoft]

I dont mean to be direct. but you flamed my esponse and recommeneded a book which backs up 90% of what was said here.... so please dont post about this unlkess you've read that book your preaching about

I flamed NOTHING. I was trying to be helpful. Are you really this insecure??

I have read the book... front to back. and many others... Have you??

I don't know why I feel the need to do this but...

pg 58, What Do Corals Eat?... "Stony corals almost always reject plant material as food, although a few have been found to ingest it in relatively small amounts."

pg 53, Zooxanthellae Pigmentation... "Often, the color of a coral will change in the aquarium. It is likely that higher-nutrient water, along with the coral's photoadaptive response, are coupled in closed systems to induce this transformation. It occurs, to a large degree, by zooxanthellae pigment increase."

I could go on...

I did not say pigments were responsable for ALL color... if you read my post I said most. That is my understanding.

[MikeS]

Ok...let's not let this thread get out of hand... :-D

I'm going to keep this thread open for DEBATE....and it will stay open as long as everybody stays civil about it...

Mike

btw MoonSoft... I did miss your reference to Borneman's book but to be quoting most of his book and then questioning one part seem a little silly to me. He's a lot more qualified than I and I happen to think he is correct that stonies do not eat phytoplankton. I have read it in other places aswell.

[MoonSoft]

Travis i feel kind of insulted by your first post, stating that you feeding your system dead material and not getting results i would EXPECT that

It's the basis of this work to find out what a LIVE coral diet will do with respect to certain tank parameters.

You also said bornean said they dont eat algae
pg 58, What Do Corals Eat?... "Stony corals almost always reject plant material as food, although a few have been found to ingest it in relatively small amounts."

Actually if you think about it feeding rotifers to my tank which i do. they eat Phytoplankton (algae) and the cell remains intact when the corals eat the rotifers, so actually they are getting most of their nutrition from ALGAE wouldn't you agree????

I have to debate some of Bornemans work because he is NOT a Biologist. he says this several times.. i also dont base my posts on all of his writings. i have other sources
Woods Hole research work on Pigmentation components, and bleaching events.
University of Texas Marine Science center (Joan Holt Ph.D.) husbandry
My Boss Brian Brawner (marine bilogist) Texas A&M marine chemistry
Jeff Kaiser (UTMSI) methods of rearing rotifers and algae for feed
Eric Bornemans book Corals Selection husbandry and natural history."with emphasis on live diets and coloration"

More opinions and research work is better than one opinion. i am NOT A MARINE BIOLOGIST I AM JUST RUNNING AN EXPERIEMTNT within the guidlines of research work done in the past. I am trying to demonstrate care of these corals based on new methods for aquarists.

I hope this clears some things up.

Travis i feel kind of insulted by your first post, stating that you feeding your system dead material and not getting results i would EXPECT that


It's the basis of this work to find out what a LIVE coral diet will do with respect to certain tank parameters.

Live phytoplankton does not help the sps corals that much. My "dead" food they would eat before the live phytoplankton. I also feed DTs twice a week. Not for the stonies but more for the micro critters. I have not seen an improvement. If that insults you then run your own tank for a while so you can report your own results. Most of the experience reefers I have talked to see NO improvements when feeding.

You also said bornean said they dont eat algae
pg 58, What Do Corals Eat?... "Stony corals almost always reject plant material as food, although a few have been found to ingest it in relatively small amounts."

If you would read what I said instead of trying to defend youself you would see I sead "Stony corals are more carnivores... they will typically reject phytoplankton and other alga's. The DTs and Phytofeast will do little for them directly. "

Actually if you think about it feeding rotifers to my tank which i do. they eat Phytoplankton (algae) and the cell remains intact when the corals eat the rotifers, so actually they are getting most of their nutrition from ALGAE wouldn't you agree????

lol, whatever...

I have to debate some of Bornemans work because he is NOT a Biologist.

Him not having a degree means NOTHING.

More opinions and research work is better than one opinion. i am NOT A MARINE BIOLOGIST I AM JUST RUNNING AN EXPERIEMTNT within the guidlines of research work done in the past. I am trying to demonstrate care of these corals based on new methods for aquarists.

That gives you NO reason to be rude.

I hope this clears some things up.

Not really... sorry. All of this has been done before. But that's ok... I don't care as long as people know you're basing these things on theories and not facts.

[mojoreef]

Good debate folks, lets keep it on track so we can gain some knowledge out of this.

Moonsoft its great to see someone put the time into researching about thier corals, you will do well in this hobby. SPS in fact do not eat Phytoplankton, thier have been rare cases where tiny ammounts have been found in thier gut but it has always been undigested. Rotifers would be concidered a more natural food for sps, but even still they are not really the majority of what a sps will take in.
For all corals external feeding is a component of the amount of tissue they have. The more tissue a coral has the more external nutrition it will require. In the case of SPS they are only 2 cell layers thick and thus not much is required. SPS get the vast majority of thier nutritional needs meet through Photosynthesis (this includes sugars and simular required for pigments). With corals its all about energy budget, and SPS dont have a very big budget, thier for they utilize 2 very effective and low energy requiring methods for external feeding. The first is direct absorbsion through the tissue and the second is slime netting. A SPS will put out a layer of slime from its cilca, this will be immediately attacked by bacteria trying to reduce it and other forms of planktonic life looking for a free meal. The coral then will retrieve the slime and gather up all the planktonic life assocaited with it. These two forms of feeding will give a coral all the external food it requires. Now on top of this you still have detritus (dead food) which is really not dead as it is engulfed with bacteria and other simular critters trying to reduce or feed on it. If the right size particle happens to smack the SPS right in the polyp then it is a great source for nutrition also.
Adding all this extra stuff (phyto/rotifers) to the reef tannk is good for alot of critters in the tank but care must be taken that you dont skew the tank to very poor water quality. To be honest unless you have something that you know requires it I would not feed PHyto as it is almost pure Phosphate.

I will get into the pigmentations and so on a little later, wife is ringing the honeydo list.

MIke

unless you have something that you know requires it I would not feed PHyto

I agree 100%.

[MikeS]

moved this to the Advanced Discussion forum...this is where it belongs IMO

Mike

[MoonSoft]

Thats cool i'll tell you what i trust a Marine biologist more than a hobbyist, i wanted to post some helpful info but appearantly eveyone likes to toot the YOUR WRONG horn too much, without any thought to how much time some one has dumped into research or knowledge seeking.... i can see there are allott of KNOW-IT-ALLS here, so i'll let the researchers at UTMSI know that they are wrong...... do me a favor dont post anymore on my topics please.. if you dont agree appraoch it differently

thankyou

Where can I get a copy of the UTMSI (Joan Holt Ph.D.) husbandry?? Sounds like a good resource!! The only publishings I have found by Joan Holt are on larval fish.

[mojoreef]

Man Moonsoft I really dont understand the attitude, I thought the idea was to have a conversation and debate some ideas. Not its my way and your all dumb hoobists if you dont agree??
I am not saying that you are wrong abouot your whole post however thier are flaws, we can discuss it or not.
Coloration was long thought to be attributed to the Zooxanthellae that live inside the corals soft tissues above the coral skeleton
They do contribute to the color of the corals, they contain periden (yellow) and chloriphill's (green) mix them together and you get brown. As per other pigments with in the coral they have been known for decades.
Pigmentation of corals is NOT just from the zooxanthellae, which are normally brown; these pigments consist of other nutrients cartenoids, vitamins, which are either present in the coral from uptake or part of the zooxanthellae processes
True coral coloration does not come just from Zoox. All pigments in corals are protiens, these protiens are genetically encoded in the coral, but the nutrients and aminos they need can come from external sources and internal biproducts from the zoox.
Given that zooxanthellae are normally brown one would surmise that feeding just the zooxanthellae light would entice the coral to focus on the zooxanthellae and not the uptake of chemical compounds or vitamins for nutrition. Maybe this explains the browning of corals in captivity, being masked by the colors of zooxanthellae.
This is where you dont understand it. The zoox in corals will take nutrients anyway they can come, they will absorb them directly through thier tissue, recieve them as a waste product of the coral or absorb them from slime netting capture of live or died prey. A coral will not focus on light up take and ignore some mysterious chemical uptake. A coral will use all its forms of nutrient uptake to meet the energy budget it has period. The reason most coral brown in peoples tanks is that most folks have nutrient laidened tanks which fertalize the zoox and create blooms within the coral.
SPS corals major body component besides the skeleton are the "FEEDING POLYPS" these are responsible for nutrient vitamin and animal uptake
The skeliton of a coral is not a body part, its a waste dump so the coral can rid itself of calcium which inhibits it tissue growth and polyps are but one source of responcible for uptake.
These animals voraciously consume Phytoplankton, and some may even consume some rotifers "zooplankton"
NO they dont voraciously consume phyto,they may accidently consume some phyto because the particle size is correct, but their has been no scientific proof that they do, actually thier has been many studies that they dont have the digestive emzynes to use phyto. They do intake zooplankton but the vast majority of their consumption comes from bacteria associated with detritus or individually.
Since some aquarists run UV sterilization or heavy foam fractioning it is expected that the corals food source is removed forcing it to derive nutrition from Light
SPS corals get 98% of thier nutrietional requirements from light reactions with the zoox, this has been scientifically proven a thousand times. So nothing is driving them to do this, they have been doing it for millions of years.
As you can see the polyp extension is awesome I took this pics after the lights had been off for about an hour after feeding and turned them on snapped a few pics then turned it back off some of the polyps are actually contracted NOT RETRACTED proving they ARE feeding!
Polyps being extended do not prove a coral is feeding. The coral uses its polyps for feeding, reproduction, offensive action, defensive action, cleaning and along with a bunch of other functions so you have no idea what it is doing. Polyps extension can be caused by chemical or mechanical stimulation. As in they could come out because they sence a chemicals coming from other corals or from food or from any other of the many reasons. SPS coral do not have a developed nematocyst, as in it is not barbed like other corals, so thier capture method this way is poor and ineffective, this is why they have developed other means of nutrient uptae such as zoox, slime netting and direct absorbsion.
It has been scientifically proven that SPS do require nutrients from other sources then just zoox, refer to the methods I have listed.


mike

[mojoreef]

Corals have Zoox which is an algae, actually they are dinoflagellates. they are the same as the nasty ones in our tanks. With in this dino are pigments. A series of chlorophyll’s which are green and carotenoid peridinin which is yellow. (yellow and green make??? brown, thus most corals are brown) now these pigments are basically chemical molecules that possess the ability to absorb visible light photons. and so the process starts. The energy of the light photons are captured by these pigments and transfered through a system called ETS (electron transport system). and eventually end up in a reaction center, which leads to the formation of ATP and NADPH . ATP is the food (Hmm andrenlintriphosphate??? (sp). and nadph is reducing power. both form organic compounds the coral can use as food.
Now the ammounts of these pigments in corals is not a carved in stone thing, they can have more chlorophyll’s and less carotenoid's or visa visa and this can influence the color of the coral and/or clam. So how does that influence the light we use??? most of the pigments chlorophyll have a strong ability to gather light in the blue and violet range. the other more dominant pigment carotenoid peridinin mostly absorbs blue light waves, but does absorb violet and a tiny bit of green. So you make the call on the K of the bulb you wish to use (or combination).
So now lets move away from the aglae that is providing food and take a look at some of the actual colors of the corals, because as we know not all corals are brown (thank God).
Also with in the coral are more pigments. they have a variety of different purposes and requirements. they reside with in the tissue of the coral itself. Now these pigments do not have the ability to transfer light energy, but it has been found that in very deep waters they have the ability to alter particular color wave lengths. This is done by absorbing one color and the fluorescing a color the coral can use. SPS or shallow water corals produce large ammounts of pigments under high lighting intencity. So lets get into the meat of it.
Most pigments in coral tissue are called pocilloporin and are catagorized as either Brightly Colored Low Fluorescent Pocilloporins or as Highly Fluorescent Pocilloporins. Highly Fluorescent Pocilloporin pigments have the ability to absorb light with a specific wavelength and then fluoresce or emit this light into a different wavelength. Most of the highly flouresent variety act as UV protectorants, protecting the coral and algae from UV's and to much light. the lower flourescent types tend to help the Zoox pigments convert uv and /or violet leght into something useable.
These pigments absorb light basically with in the zone of 400 to 620 nm. violet to blue to some green and some yellow and some red. they absorb these light waves but fluorese dofferent colors back out. The colors they fluorese out are the colors we see in our tanks.
So conclution...sorta. most of the light waves corals use for growth are in the range of blue and violet. this is for food but not necessarly the color of the coral. the pigemnts inside the corals tissue, have a roader range of absorbtion and emit a different color then they absorb (usually). but it has nothing to do with thier feeding process. Thier is also the fact of cross linked pigments which works like the following. One pigment would capture a light wave in the low violet range and flourese it back out in the 450 zone (blue) which would be captured by the next pigment and then flouresed out to the next wave up. Basically working its way all the way through the spectrum.
If you want to promote colors in your tank just match up the color you want your corals to be and provide the appropriate light by choosing a bulb that produces those light waves. The light waves hitting the coral will promote a few of the light waves to become dominant and thus color up the coral. Also do not run a nutrient laidened tank as that will fertalize the zoox and you will end up with a brown coral, doing things like trying to feed your sps phytoplankton is the fast trach to a brown coral.


hope it helps


MIke

Mike

[MoonSoft]

So if the zooxanthellae are responsible for housing all of the coloration explain corals that have skeletons that are differnt colors.......


and then tell me why a growing tip on an acro colony would have more color if the zooxanthellae are responsable.... since it is understood that less of the zooxanthellae exist in the growing tips of corals.

i dont mind a debate, you havn't seen the posts from the other guy that were "cleaned up" or deleted. Just like i said before i am not a Marine biologist, nor an expert i just put together some info and posted it as how i interpreted it. I noticed better growth and coloration after super saturating my ALK, raising it to 4.6mg/l 1/3 which was carbonate.. which helps the corals get rid of the calcium carbonate, which in turn helps them grow faster.

you haven't seen the posts from the other guy that were "cleaned up" or deleted

Not sure whom you are talking about but the only one who has replied improperly is you. Some of my posts were edited to tone them down a bit but only after you blasted me above for NO reason at all. You should slow down and learn instead of getting mad and defensive. No one is questioning why you posted this, I think most is pretty good.

I'll post my opinions on the above in a little while... got to go for now...

So if the zooxanthellae are responsible for housing all of the coloration explain corals that have skeletons that are differnt colors.......

I'm pretty sure all corals have white skeletons... which have colored skeletons??

[mojoreef]

So if the zooxanthellae are responsible for housing all of the coloration explain corals that have skeletons that are differnt colors....... Moonsoft thier not responsible for housing all the color for the coral, What I said was is that they do also contribute to the color of the coral. The zooxanthellae are packed into every cell of the coral tissue and can reach densities of 5 million per square centimetre of coral tissue. The corals skeliton is pure white calcium carbonate. I think you are not refering to the skeliton but are in fact refering to the stalk of the coral?? If that is so I can explain that to you.
and then tell me why a growing tip on an acro colony would have more color if the zooxanthellae are responsible.... since it is understood that less of the zooxanthellae exist in the growing tips of corals.

Sure, your right. The corals tissue with out zoox and pigments are transperant. When new growth occurs thier is a less abundant amount of zoox, thus pigments that utilize or protect against the light being offered will dominate to protect the corals tissue.
I noticed better growth and coloration after super saturating my ALK, raising it to 4.6mg/l 1/3 which was carbonate.. which helps the corals get rid of the calcium carbonate, which in turn helps them grow faster.
Well this can gain you some up front growth but its not a good thing for corals. Calcium actually inhibits the coral from cellular division. The coral has developed a method from removing it from its tissue however, what it does is to move it to the outer wall of the cell where it can be attracted by carbonate ions and deposited onto a seed surface (ex: skeliton). SO in basic terms the corals skeliton is nothing more then an internal waste dump?. This process takes up part of the corals tiny energy buget, so having higher then normal levels of alk or calcuim make the coral work alot harder and devote to much of its energy budget to this process. Yes you will get excellerated skelital growth, but you are taking away from the corals ability to do the other things it needs to do (ex: feed, defend tissue growth, fight off bacterial infections and so on). This is where you see posts like my corals were doing great and then all of a sudden I got rtn or a bleaching effect.

As per the what ever guy was bugging you just ignore them, I do it all the time. As I said in my first post on this thread the mere fact you are putting in the time is a great thing, countless reefers will read this thread and learn from it. Your theory at the beging of the post was close and right in some case and a little off in others. I am here just to straighten a few thinngs up so we can all benefit from it.
So read my posts to you and lets work through some of the misconcepts.

whatcha say???


mike

[gman0526]

Awesome discussion guys!!!

[MikeS]

Travis...I believe there are a few corals with colored skeletons...the ridge coral has a greyish-blue skeleton...pipe organ polyp colonies have a red skeleton. How exactly the skeletons become colored I am unsure.

Mike

That's interesting Mike. I did not know that... I'm curious now how they become colored.

[MoonSoft]

same here, as I said before then this would lead me to believe that the zooxanthellae are only partially responsible for color..., what I want to concentrate on as in the VERY BEGINNING of this thread is the NON-Zooxanthellae coloration, and how to enhance that, as we all can seem to feed the coral the right light, there are missing links... I have never had any RTN or bleaching events, since I started keeping SPS , I have had friends who have had it happen, and it's basically.. In my opinion due to neglect, severe water parameter swing, or of course not quarantining your livestock before being introduced into the tank..

I make it habit to Quarantine, I also make it a point to inspect the coral up front, this may sound off to your guys, but I have noticed that a health coral has this kind of sweet odor when you pull it out of the water... I would guess the same type of odor you get from live phytoplankton concentrates. Well kind of sickly sweet... and I have smelled corals that looked fine, and sometimes I can sense a difference in the odor, I know it sounds weird but sick corals don’t "smell' right.. LMAO!!! I know I’ll probably get flamed for this but I don’t care anymore....

Let me know what you think.. To this date I have rescued 5 complete colonies from the LFS that were either in the middle of RTN, or were partially encrusted with Hair algae... I will enclose some pics of my new specimens and note their progress using this increased alk method, please note I DO NOT SUPERSATURATE CA!!!!!!!!! As mike said this is dangerous for the corals, calcium is not food for corals more like wood for their structure.., but making it easier for them to remove the calcium, EX: increasing the alk (glue) I am sure this will let the coral make more flesh, in which to recover from necrosis..

Of course I am a firm believer in the use of dip and repair tools to help a colony along.

Give your 2 cents.. hell maybe yer .25 BTW I found two MINT Wisconsin quarters with the flaws!!! :) Maybe I’ll get rich on e-bay!!!

-cheers

[MoonSoft]

My thoughts on those colors were nutrient based.... but i am not sure still digging, also note that tubipora musica, has either white or green polyps, so how can ANY of the RED skeletal color come from Zooxanthellae, and then where is it coming from... i figure any topics BORNEMAN doesn't cover would be harder to debate, and might actually lead to some REAL research, instead of quoting books, i find myself doing it but most of the information is NEVER complete, & it's just a person opinion....

no doggin Eric, but i always have to question how one gets their info, and how much research the info came from.... one persons success is seldom anothers.... thats why this hobby needs more research, to iron out the facts, of coral husbandry

[mojoreef]

I believe there are a few corals with colored skeletons...the ridge coral has a greyish-blue skeleton...pipe organ polyp colonies have a red skeleton
The blue ridge coral has a blue skeliton because it absorbs iron which is then deposited onto its skeliton.
tubipora musica is not a SPS actuall its not even classified as a hard coral. Its a softy in the same family as leathers. Again thier skeliton is really spongy when their healthy and the coloration has to do with certain elements the fix to thier tubes, Iron, cobalt.

If you are talking about Color pigments, not related to Zoox then read my post Moon. Most all pigments are genetically encoded in corals. They are all protiens fed by zoox algae biproduct with the exceptions of 2 types of amino acids. These acids are found in bacteria and other simular planktonic critters. The color/pigment which will become dominate is the result of what light is being put onto it.


Mike

[MoonSoft]

Then explain Bornemans non-zooxanthllae pigment chart???? if the zoos are, carotene does not have ANYTHING to do with light yet it is a coral pgment component, it was said that corals skeletons, were white, the point just got brought up that NO they are not all white.. so i ask again how would light have anything to do with non-zooxanthellae pigmentation??

Tubipora still creates a calcium carbonate based skeleton that is NOT white...... if coloration is genetically based then tell me why some corals can reject their coloration BLEACHING, and obtain completely new coloration later.... you theory doesn't seem to hold water

[mojoreef]

Ok Moon your getting things mixed up. Eric chart is a list of protien pigments (some of them, but not all of them). Just like the coral has pigments so due the zoox which is algae living inside the coral.

Then explain Bornemans non-zooxanthllae pigment chart???? The list is of some of the pigment protiens found in zoox, in corals in some inverts and a whole list of other things, Whats your point???

if the zoos are, carotene does not have ANYTHING to do with light yet it is a coral pgment component,

Carotenoid peridinin is one of the pigments that are in zoox. Carotenoids are a family of pigments, their are like 50 different sub-families of carotenoids of which peridinin is one. Different pigments serve different purposes in the coral. The light gathering and its turning into food is done by Zoox algae, WHICH happens to use to pigment groups, period. The pigments with in the corals tissue also serve different purposes, some act as UV protectorant some reflect/ flourese light waves back to the zoox, some take on light wave and covert it into a different color light wave and then reflect that back to the zoox. Most pigments are in the dna of the coral and dominace will occur when the enviroment dictates. As in a coral getting bombarded by UV , its UV protectorants will begin to dominate the corals tissue as the enviroment dictates the coral needs protection. Same thing applies to any colored bul you put above it.
it was said that corals skeletons, were white, the point just got brought up that NO they are not all white.. so i ask again how would light have anything to do with non-zooxanthellae pigmentation??
LOL I think you need to do a little more reseach my friend. non-zooxanthellae pigmentation has everything to do with light, just turn the light off in your tank and see hwat happens to the corals color. Have no idea what you are talking about in regards to the skeliton?? A corals skeliton is a waste dump for calcium, period.
Tubipora still creates a calcium carbonate based skeleton that is NOT white...... I explianed that?? why dont you do a search or the Tubipora's skeliton color, just type it in and press search it should clear that up.
if coloration is genetically based then tell me why some corals can reject their coloration BLEACHING, and obtain completely new coloration later
wow?? Bleaching is caused by a heat stress enzyme which the color releases when thier has been a large rise in the temp of the water. When this enzyme is released it causes the zoox to bail and leave the coral. When the coral releases its zoox it looses all the color they added to the overall color of the coral. Then with them gone the pigments (balance of the color in the coral) starve out as they are not getting the products they require to live and thus they fade away and the coral is now bleached. The corals tissue is naturally transparent, so when the zoox and the pigments are gone we basically see the skeliton (WHITE) through the tissue. Coral do have the ability to capture zoox , they do this at birth also. If a coral has bleached thier is a chance that it can regain zoox but usually the coral dies of starvation before that happens. You also have to remember thier are many different types of zoox, they different by the enviroment the coral lives in. Most corals keep more then one strain of zoox with in them.

you theory doesn't seem to hold water
LOL I am not giving you a theory, what I am telling you is exactly the way it works. Do some searches on scientific studies related to this and you will see, thier have been tens of thousands of them.


Mike

[MikeS]

Ok....I'm by no means an SPS expert here....but mojo's information on pigmentation, bleaching, ect (which can be applied to basically any photosynthetic invertebrate)....are correct and backed by lots of good studies. These are not theroies...

Ok, I guess what we need to do is find the link between what Moonsoft is seeing and the biological facts here.

Mike

[MoonSoft]

you are contradicting yourself
you just said that the corals color is genetically driven and now you say it's environnmetal??

which is it. Dont take this the wrong way but when you dictate to someone they are wrong then contradict yourself i have a hard time trusting the info... post some refrences please.

[MoonSoft]

by the way erics chart says at the top NON-ZOOXANTHELLAE PIGMENTS!! PERIOD.

and what i was getting at is you kept saying the pigmentation comes from whats inside the zooxanthellae but the chart abviously say this is NOT so.

There are pigmnts not part of the zooxanthellae, and some of those dominate the coral to give it the better coloration we see. even in the infamous Eric Borneman book he says that zooxanthellae are gold or brown that they only contribute those pgments to the coral. the other pigments are NON-ZOOXANTHELLIC.

so who is right?? and what refrences are there to back up either story??

[MoonSoft]

is this a plot to attack everything i say, i didn't expect my post to be DISECTED and quoted back to me i fell pretty attacked here, what's the deal???

[mojoreef]

you just said that the corals color is genetically driven and now you say it's environnmetal??

Your not reading, I said that corals a genetically encoded with most pigments, from thier its a matter enviroment.
which is it. Dont take this the wrong way but when you dictate to someone they are wrong then contradict yourself i have a hard time trusting the info... post some refrences please.
I am not contradicting myself you just cant read?? Post references?? every study on the planet in regards to color pigmentation in corals is referenced that way. Why dont you find one that not??

by the way erics chart says at the top NON-ZOOXANTHELLAE PIGMENTS!! PERIOD.
SO what?? Whats the topic of the thread?? SPS coloration? Just because a pigment is not in zoox does not make it not light driven. Pigments in Zoox are also present in the corals tissue. I can understand how you can not see this.
is this a plot to attack everything i say, i didn't expect my post to be DISECTED and quoted back to me i fell pretty attacked here, what's the deal???
Oh yea its a plot. I am quoting you so I can answer you points. I am not attacking you, I am trying to clear up some misconceptions you have but you are not listening or reading my posts. Feel free to take any of the keywords a do a search on them and it will back up what I am saying. What we are talking about here is very well known and documented. Just take a look.


Mike

[MoonSoft]

well then why dont you re-write then entire article and i;ll delete my posts cause now i dont even see the point in posting anything

[MikeS]

Moon...your post is neither being disected nor plotted against. You've taken the time to do some research and are testing a theory with your results, which is admirable, but now lets all calm down and compare those results to good scientific studies and figure out what you are seeing. Mojo isn't here to attack your findings, he's here to help narrow it down and properly interpret the results...

This thread has some great potential...so I'm going to keep it open...

Mike

[MoonSoft]

There are more polite and proper ways of pointing out discrepencies than trying to make a retard out of me in my thread... i really dont appreciate it..

if he doesn't want to post refrences and just expects me and everyone else to just go off his "expert" advise then this is not the place for that.... i opened this with information i had found and i quoted refrences where i found this info, if someone wants to tell me i am wrong i have no problem with that... but put up something showing that instead of demanding i bow down to his worships text.

if you cant poinbt us to the documentation, what are you hiding. if you are too lazzy then dont post the argument in the first place.!!! This thread is supposed to be to post info not to send people out on an internet keyword search.

thankyou,

Sincerely,
AARON

[Zack]

Wow great info in this thread and it looks like everyone has said their peace. Lets leave it at that and if you find new information or would like to key in on a certain aspect please feel free to start a new thread.

Zack

[jman785]

A high DOC or nitrate levels are a common cause of corals turning brown because its basically an fertilizer for the brown symbiotic algae. So if you watch your DOC, Nitrates, and Phosphates, and keep them under control, you can keep your SPS colors vibrant, normally.