Phytoplankton

[gman0526]

After much pondering, research, reading and convincing I've decided to give a try to a live Phytoplankton continuous feeding regime.

I'm still thinking out the details as to how to make this work without dumping tons of nutrients in the tank. Specially since I'm an advocate for not overfeeding and quality feeding.

But an article that I read on Coral magazine on nutrients in the aquarium and how it has been proven that even photosyntectic corals do feed off the water column as long as the particle size is correct pushed me into trying this.

It also theorizes that many corals feed of bacteria that resides on the mucous layer that covers the corals. This is why the vodka dosing method "works", by feeding alcohol (carbon) to the bacteria in the tank, corals have more available nutrients on top of the byproducts of their zooanthelae.

Now back to the phyto... has anybody been able to culture phyto/Green water succesfully, affordably at home? I've read about plant fertilizer being used to boost phyto production but I've read this is not advisable since it's not intended for aquarium use and really has not much use for the corals, since the phyto produced dies off quickly and when this happens the particles clump together making it pretty much useless for the corals. Any help, links, insight, prayers are highly appreciated.

[FishinInTheDark]

Sounds like a cool project! I can't help you, but keep us posted. . .

[MikeS]

Hmmmm....I've seen writeups on DIY green water stations in the past, but it's been awhile, I really don't remember much about them.....

Have you considered using a dry phytoplankton instead of a live one?

Mike

[Doctor_Reef]

Same here..... Mike what has your experience been with the dry... Have you had good success with it??? I'm just curious.....??

[MikeS]

So far....I started using it when I first got my T Derasa, primarily because it was so small....but now it's huge and gets most of its nutrients via photosythesis, so I don't dose it as often any more, maybe once a week or so....

But when I was using it regularly, it seemed to work ok....the clam grew quickly, as did the feather duster worm and other filter feeder populations in the tank...and I noticed no negative side effects or increases in water pollution...

BTW it's ESB's spray dried phytoplankton I use....

Mike

[Doctor_Reef]

Thanks for the type.... Does it come with doseing guides for full tank feedings or did you target feed it???

[MikeS]

I just dosed the whole tank....It comes with dosing guidelines (which I always cut about in half :wink: ) and one of those tiny measuring spoons....I'd add one of those per day....the clam grew very rapidly in my tank, so I only needed to do this for a few months....now I dose it about once a week, just to give the clam and other filter feeders a little extra nourishment....

Mike

[Doctor_Reef]

Do you do any DT's or any liquid live phyto??? Cost for this stuff is nuts!!!!!

[MikeS]

no....I can't find it locally (I live in Wyoming) and the cost of shipping made it out of the question. That's the main reason I got the spray dried stuff....

I did look into doing my own green water station several years ago....but most of the DIY plans I saw were fairly elaborate and took up a fair amount of space, so I pretty much gave up on that as well. Besides, I don't think my wife would have liked having a bunch of 2 litre soda bottles filled with bubbling green liquid taking up the spare bedroom.... :lol:

Mike

[Doctor_Reef]

HehEHehe.... That is the way most wives are...Go figure!!!!

We have some LFS here that carry dt's and other live stuff and I have been using that for a long time... But it is so pricey!!!

[gman0526]

Pricey is the word people, there's gotta be a better way. I can get DT but like Ron stated it's just too expensive.

As far as dried product, from what I've read the dead particles tend to clump together thus making them useless and unprocessable by the corals, for clams and corals with bigger oral openings this is just fine.

[Condiman]

Check out this article it may be useful
http://www.coralforum.com/reference55.html

[Doctor_Reef]

Nice read Condiman.... Gman0526 you have that right.... I have heard the same thing.... All though it does appear that Mike has had good results with the brand he uses..... :)

[MikeS]

As far as dried product, from what I've read the dead particles tend to clump together thus making them useless and unprocessable by the corals, for clams and corals with bigger oral openings this is just fine.

Hmmm.....I have never had that problem with my spray dried phyto....I premix it with about a pint of RO water and shake it up really good, then pour it into the tank...no proplem with clumping at all....as a matter of fact it's so fine you can't really see individual particles, just a "haze" in the water....

Mike

[Doctor_Reef]

Mike has me convinced to try some of the ESB's spray dried phytoplankton... If it works it will save me lots of dough!!!!

I haven't seen the article so I'm operating blind here.

But an article that I read on Coral magazine on nutrients in the aquarium and how it has been proven that even photosyntectic corals do feed off the water column as long as the particle size is correct pushed me into trying this.

This is quite true. No coral gets all of it's nutritional needs met by light alone. You can pretty much tell what it's nutritional needs are by looking at how much tissue it has and how big it's mouth is. Let's look at a toadstool (sarcophyton). It has tons of flesh, tons of mass, and 'technically" it is one animal. Let's look at the typical SPS coral. It is almost all skeleton, and each coral polyp is a single animal with very little flesh (remember....if you had a dinky acropora frag with 30 polyps, you have a coral colony of 30 different animals). Let's look at the typical LPS. Their mouths are larger and over time, tend to split and divide into more than one animal with separate mouths even though it looks like one big animal. All of the above are carnivores....they aren't filter-feeders that feed on plant material. Clams are, feather dusters are, sponges are, and numerous other critters are, but the corals will not eat the phyto. They will however, ingest a portion of the larvae of other critters that are filter feeders when they spawn.

If you keep SPS, all you need to feed your corals (other than pristine water conditions and light) is good enough flow to keep the fish poo in suspension in the water column...it's like a multivitamin for them. Then skim the rest off.

Look at the mouth and flesh size of (just for an example) a branching frogspawn. It is quite different than a SPS....each head has a large mouth and each head is a separate animal. What does that mean? It means that an occassional target feeding would be appropriate with a turkey baster.

Most softies (octocorals) have a small mouth and don't need to be target fed. They have a large mass but a small mouth. That tells you that they need a lot more nutrients than SPS but they don't need it in a particulate form. (Basically, they get it from dirty water).

The above is the reason why I would never attempt a mixed reef. The water conditions and nutrient requirements of an SPS and a softy are ssssoooo different.

It also theorizes that many corals feed of bacteria that resides on the mucous layer that covers the corals. This is why the vodka dosing method "works", by feeding alcohol (carbon) to the bacteria in the tank, corals have more available nutrients on top of the byproducts of their zooanthelae.

Bacteria are not plants and they definately do consist of a portion of a coral's diet....it is not theory, it's a proven fact by the NOAA and other scientific groups. However, this is NOT why the Vodka Dosing method works. Regardless, unless you want a crack-tank, it only works temporarily. Try dosing vodka for a month and then quit...I dare you. Here's a good thread. http://www.coralforum.com/sutra25438.html&highlight=vodka#25438

All bacteria are "nutrient limited" and "real estate limited". Provide some extra nutrients and the bacteria population will expand.....at least for a day or so (their lives are measured in hours as opposed to days or years). Quit doing this, and the organic phosphate they contain will quickly become inorganic PO4....YIKES!!!

[Doctor_Reef]

Very interesting stuff....mantisfreak, So have you used this vodka dosing method on your tank???? Just wondering!!!

[NaH2O]

All bacteria are "nutrient limited" and "real estate limited". Provide some extra nutrients and the bacteria population will expand.....at least for a day or so (their lives are measured in hours as opposed to days or years). Quit doing this, and the organic phosphate they contain will quickly become inorganic PO4....YIKES!!!


Couldn't agree more. Anyone that has cycled a tank has experienced this same event. Tons of organics being broken down, and the bacteria are doing their jobs and processing them. Once there is a sufficient population to meet the tank's input (for instance...curing live rock in a new tank....the rock becomes cured), then the bacteria begin to die off. What happens to the mass amount dead bacteria? Their bound nutrients are released, and algae comes in to feed off of it. Bingo - time for the new tank to have an algae cycle.

I'm not a fan of Phytoplankton, unless target feeding a baby clam....and even then, I feel it is more appropriate for the clam to be removed from the tank to be fed. As stated above, if you look at the coral, you will be able to assess its needs. Remember the coral gains energy from the zoox processes for the most part (except in non-photosynthetic corals), and in the case of SPS (as an example) that is a high percentage. So, basically, if you have enough light for the SPS, then it is fed....the supplement is in the form of fish waste. Now, if you enjoy sponges and feather dusters, then maybe phyto is a good choice, however, what happens when you clean the algae growing on the glass with a magnet scraper? Doesn't that algae go into the water column and provide the same effect as phytoplankton?

Mike - What's the phosphate content of the spray dried phyto? I would think feeding live phyto would be a better choice, but since I'm uneducated on the dried, I would like to know more about it. If you have a phosphate test, could you check the phosphates? I assume since it isn't fresh, there are preservatives? Let me know more. Also, do you run your skimmer when dosing this (if you use a skimmer)? Thanks :)

No I haven't and I won't. Here's the post I put on the thread I linked to. On the other thread, I stated it in such a way as to generate discussion. I was acting like it was theoretical when this is pretty much what is going to happen.

I would not do this to my tank....especially if I had a sandbed. I read 2 pages of the RC thread but closed it down.

Here's why...adding a Carbon source to fuel a bacterial bloom is risky IMO. Especially if you have a sandbed. You cannot pick and choose which bacteria use that Carbon source....they will ALLL use it. Sure the AOBs and NOBs will use it but so will the Sulphate Reducing Bacteria (SRB) and Sulphate Oxidizing Bacteria (SOB). Who wants to promote a Sulphide zone in their sandbed??? Most people have one and don't even know it. They think that because they cannot see a grey line indicating a sulphide zone, they don't have one. However, once enough Iron gets introduced via waterchanges, feedings, etc., the grey line will magically appear.

If you were at your wits end and wanted to try this, why use Vodka? You would be much better off with moonshine or Everclear http://www.webtender.com/db/ingred/71 . (Note the warning for humans.....I think they should update their webpage to include corals too LOL). It is a lot more pure than Vodka and the Carbon is right on the front (CH3CH2OH).

Assuming you don't accidentally overdose, I have to question whether the effects on N and P are permanent or temporary. Bacteria are primarily food limited (but also somewhat housing space limited). There are bacteria that are motile and run around the water column but for the most part, they live in biofilms on a surface. After the bacterial bloom, how many of the bacteria are we really skimming out vs creating thicker biofilms? If my hypothesis regarding this answer is true, what do you think is going to happen once you stop adding a Carbon source? If I'm correct, the nutrient-limited bacteria will die and release N and P into the water column but it will be all in one day (most bacteria don't live more than 24 hours). Yikes...would you collect skimmate for a couple of months and then dump it into your tank all at once?

[Doctor_Reef]

I thought that you hadn't and I wouldn't either.... :)

[MikeS]

Mike - What's the phosphate content of the spray dried phyto? I would think feeding live phyto would be a better choice, but since I'm uneducated on the dried, I would like to know more about it. If you have a phosphate test, could you check the phosphates? I assume since it isn't fresh, there are preservatives? Let me know more. Also, do you run your skimmer when dosing this (if you use a skimmer)? Thanks :)

I don't know what the phosphate content is on it Nikki...I'll mix up a batch and test it today sometime if I get a chance....

I did not notice an increase in my phosphates, nitrates, ect while using it regularly, so honestly I never really thought too much about it being a large source of phosphates....but I will test it....

On the Vodka thing...I agree...I have never attempted it, nor to I plan on doing so....it may be different if lots of reefkeepers had been doing it for a long time with no ill effects....but much of what I have read on the subjuect shows some promise but is very hit-or-miss....I'll put the vodka in a rocks glass with some tonic and lime, not in my reef.... :-D


Mike

[MikeS]

Ok....I mixed I scoop (the scoop is small, I'd guess around 100-200mg) in 1 pint distilled water and came up with 6ppm PO4. So based on my guestimated actual water volume in my 55, I figure I'm adding about 0.02ppm PO4 each time I dose one scoop of the stuff....not TOO bad....but definately some PO4 there....

Mike

[NaH2O]

Mike, how often do you dose this (apologies if you already stated it)? Do you think it will have a "build-up" effect? Certainly, it seems, if using phytoplankton, live would be best, as there shouldn't be any phosphates present. But, when the phyto starts to die (i.e. old bottle, improper storage), then you would see phosphates....I'm unclear though how high they would be.

[MikeS]

currently I dose 1 scoop every week to 10 days, just as a little something extra for the filter feeders....IMO not enough to present much of a cumulitave effect in my system....

Mike

[Doctor_Reef]

That is nice to know... I do use the dt's and would like to find something a little less in cost.....hopeing that this will fill the bill!!! :?:

[gman0526]

Here's a couple of links if anybody else is interested:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/aug2002/breeder.htm

http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/003/W3732E/w3732e00.htm#Contents

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-07/ds/index.htm

http://www.sjwilson.net/reef/phytosteps.html

[Sugar Magnolia]

great links George, but waaay too far into the DIY realm for me. I'll stick with the DT's for now. It just kills me how much it costs.

[newtofish]

I have never tried to make my own, but, I do know that there are alot of people here in my area who make their own. Here is a link from Marc,

http://www.melevsreef.com/phytoplankton.html

The people seem to not have a problem. When we have our monthly meetings there are always twenty or thirty bottles floating around.

[jman785]

thnx for the links