Electricy & coral growth

[gman0526]

I was browsng through RC's advanced discussion forum and came upon a thread on this topic. Has anybody ever tried this "technique"?

[Zack]

I found when I came back from a week vaction that my return pump was putting electricy in the tank and noticed some considerable growth in my zoos and lps corals.

[gman0526]

Would you do it regularly?

[Zack]

I don't see how it works, don't you get shocked everytime you put your hand in, I know I did!!!

[cich1]

i missed the link

Prehaps small amounts that cant be detected Zack, maybe? I too am just seeing too much drama potential here for that.

Sorry Gman, but unles the growth is unreal I aint going to try it, I have been zapped way too many times and way too good, to walk on water chancing that the ice wont break...Interesting concept though, I will have to take a gander at that thread!

[Condiman]

It may stimulate something in the corals. But honestly I wouldnt take the chance.

[gman0526]

I have not even thought about taking the risk is just that I'm surprised by the many things some of us would do just to get a little bit of more growth in our tanks. This must be the Hulk method or something.

Just wanted to find out if anybody here has or would give it a try.

This is being done in a number of places but I would be afraid to do it in my tank.

http://globalcoral.org/Solution%20for%20Corals%20in%20Peril.htm

Read the info on the Biorock Technology here.
http://globalcoral.org/reef_restoration_projects.htm

[gman0526]

Great links, looks a lot like the http://www.reefballball.com projects.

[gman0526]

These are the links related to the original thread:

http://www.msnbsc.msn.com/id/5770139

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=430060

[winnona15]

i wouldnt try it i dont have corals yet but still i think its too risky

[kouma]

what about the fish? won't they die from an electric shock?

[Zack]

what about the fish? won't they die from an electric shock?

I am not sure how fish would react to it. i did not see any difference in them for the VERY short time I tried it.

[BigBill]

Pretty sure fish only feel a shock at very high current (electrical current not water current)... Due to them not being a path for electricity, but at high enough current electricity tends to go where ever it wants.

Which is how if you have an old megger or old hand crank phone, you can use them to fish, by putting the wires in the water and cranking them, but even then it only stuns the fish for a while, doesnt kill them.

DISCLAIMER: Do not try this at home.


I have an uncle in Kentucky that fishes this way unless he is using dynomite.

[cruzeoc]

ZACK did you use a low voltage transformer to administer electricity to your tank id like to give this ago as i dont have any fish in my tank at the moment please could you give me a little more info like volts amps and current ????

[Zack]

My mag 7 had shorted out and was sending electricty through the tank for up to 1/2 hour.

[Telco Guy]

I would be extremely careful if trying this since you would need to use some electrodes made of something that is not going to cause problems if it erodes in to the tank. Titanium comes to mind as a possible choice. But, as mentioned in some of the articles, the proper low voltage and other issues is extremely important. Also, I wouldn't try this in a small tank or a tank with any fish in it.

[cruzeoc]

so what volage do you have in america ?? 240v in the uk will i need to stepdown ?

[Telco Guy]

so what volage do you have in america ?? 240v in the uk will i need to stepdown ?
MOST DEFINITELY!!! In one of the articles they said that the amount of electricity induced in to the open water test site in one week would amount to operating a 60 watt light bulb for a month.

Again, be extremely careful with this. Another reported outcome from this was chlorine gas. I'm not a chemist so I'm not sure where this came from, but this was reported.

It was also mentioned that the skeletal structure that grew as a result of the electrical charge was more brittle.

[Telco Guy]

Oh, and it's 110v here in the US.

[cruzeoc]

well i have a 12 volt transformer i will try them on that and see what happens il give it a shot on my cuttings from my toadstool coral

[Telco Guy]

Keep in mind that it is not only voltage, but also current that needs to be taken in to consideration. And, the unit should always be turned off before doing any maintenance on the tank. And this tank should be totally separate from the main tank.

Also, what are you planning on using for electrodes? I'm sure I don't need to remind you that copper would be a really bad idea. :wink:

Let us know the results.

[cruzeoc]

yeah i no im using aluminium rods plus i dont no the current isnt current determind on what is on it like a house hold wire wont give you a big shock if nothing is drawing a current so i dont think it will b that much water doesnt have a big draw rate it's just conductive :eek2:

[Telco Guy]

Well, not sure if aluminum is a very good choice either.It will definitely chorode in the water and may cause problems for your inhabitants.

As for current draw, well, that is determined by resistance. Saltwater is, as you say, conductive. You really need to do more research before jumping in to this since it is potentially very dangerous.

[cruzeoc]

nah it's only 12v and all water is conductive as 4 aluminum it's only a tester not a long period so i dont have to worry about corrosion

[Telco Guy]

Yes, all water is conductive, but saltwater is more conductive. And, electrodes have a tendancy to corode/erode faster due to the electrical current. Just thought I'd suggest doing a bit of research first.

[cruzeoc]

rite i have given it ago and had some lovely shocks but still alive and wow i have had some good results with my toadstool coral didnt do it 4 long but they look really good i only did 2 and they were frags but they look better than the others but IMO it's not worth doing

[jman785]

If you want to know, about the whole process you can ask me. I've contacted Prof. Hilbertz and Dr. Goreau, in regards to their Biorock process.

I might be able to further help you guys, if your interested in it.

Shocking your water, and stray voltage, do not help your corals growth.

The process in which Biorock is using, is via an anode and cathode, and they are sending anywhere from 3V-12V to the steel cages. The anode and cathode materal is being coated with Iridium and Ruthenium.

Robert, from RC, and I have been discussing likely issues about this whole process. But if you have any questions let me know.

[jman785]

You can't use Aluminum. It will corrode, and when you add current to it, it will get brittle and slowly disappear.

[cruzeoc]

jman i used a 12v step-down transformer with a 30va output i did make i complete isolated sheathed loop to lessen the conductivity with the water am i doing the rite thing???
if you can do you think you can get a diagram of what they are doing

[jman785]

That is not correct.

There process, doesn't happen over night regardless. Its not something you can regulate in the home aquaria of less than say 300 gals. You have too many fluctuations...and the Chlorine levels do get high.

I wasn't thinking when I asked Rob about the Cl2 (Chlorine) levels, he said in his 700 gallon tank, it killed all the fish.

This process is not meant for the home aquariums...trust me.

Its meant to be performed on a much larger scale, of say 10,000 gallons...the problem is, constant water changes would be needed, IMO. So the only way to recreate this, is to one, have access at an aquarium, to pump in raw seawater in, at all times...or two use the actual ocean to house your corals, etc.

[jman785]

They are welded steel cages, there anodes and cathodes, are using coatings of Iridium (not the pure form), and Ruthenium Oxide. These are what they call 'precious metals'. They are from the Platinum Metals Group (PGM). In there pure form, they aren't stable and are dangerous, some are so dangers that you can't expose them to groundwater, bodies of water, nor have them go to the sewer. Some are flammable as well, to the point of explosion. Much like Magnesium.

[jman785]

I'm not too sure, on what type of Iridium they are using, if its an Oxide or what. I haven't been able to figure it out. Although I'm waiting on a response from GCMSL...as they are going to be getting involved with a project similar to these.

In case you didn't know, the reason the small tanks won't work, is because of the acid fluctuations, and hydrogen being released, and Chlorine being released....bigger sources of water won't be effected...like the Ocean and the Gulf of Mexico...Eventually the chlorine combines with other things to produce chlorides that are not harmful to marine life.

[MoonSoft]

Fishbare affected by AC (alternating current)
DC (direct current) static electricity, ect... is completely natural, in fact
think of it this way. after me and a few others i have read about having some DC leach into th tank actually showed some surprising results in coral health and growth

Electroplating..... take two wires and a battery and a small ring or piece of metal attach one end of the wire to a beaker fill the beaker with gold cyanide, then attach the metal to another wire (+) and run current through the wires and the solution. you will actually place the metal with GOLD!!!!
Corals need minerals .. mostly ionic compounds, this is the same principle in electroplating, using salts and current to deposite minerals.. now if you have minerals attracted to these corals through electricity, then why wouldn't they grow faster??? or become more colorful....

Nature has a solution for everything.. i cant back this up with research but here are a few people DOING IT!!!
http://www.innermaldives.com/vabbinfaru.html
http://www.theworld.org/technology/coral_reef/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5770139

This is an AMAZING berakthrough!!!
and i think it warrants some trials, i will see what i can report when our store gets the SPS propagation going full blast.......

let me know what you think.

[jman785]

MoonSoft,

Thats Tom Goreau and Dr. Wolf Hilbertz, which is the same process I'm talking about, Mineral Accretion.

[MoonSoft]

It's a great process and i thing there could be a way to adapt this method for farming on shore we are thinking bout trying one of thes schemes, to see if it works as well as it's looking like it does..... how would you retrofit this into a say 300G racetrack tank for Acro propagation?

[jman785]

I'm not too sure, on what type of Iridium they are using, if its an Oxide or what. I haven't been able to figure it out. Although I'm waiting on a response from GCMSL...as they are going to be getting involved with a project similar to these.

In case you didn't know, the reason the small tanks won't work, is because of the acid fluctuations, and hydrogen being released, and Chlorine being released....bigger sources of water won't be effected...like the Ocean and the Gulf of Mexico...Eventually the chlorine combines with other things to produce chlorides that are not harmful to marine life.

300G would have to be the absolute smallest tank you would use, because of the effects of electrolyzing saltwater.

The Bio-Rock process is trademarked, and any shore protection or beach resortation, or reef building via the patented process, must be directed by someone, or an institute that has an exclusive license. These licenses come from taking there training courses, etc. Currently there aren't any classes going on, and won't be for some time. Richard Ruschman, a partner of Dr. Hilbertz and Tom Goreau, has an exlcusive license for the Gulf Coast. To date he has been focusing on Texas, Louisiana, and Mississippi.

But experiments with the Bio-Rock process are always welcomed, but in smaller versions, versus the Gulf Coast etc. Smaller setups such as 300-10,000 gallon systems have been setup demonstrating the Bio-Rock technology.

[MoonSoft]

I am not talking about Bio-Rock, i am talking about using this method to increase coral growth in propagation tanks, i can see how someone can patent a natural process... doesn't seem legit to me

[jman785]

http://www.globalcoral.org

This process is the Bio-Rock process. The Patent is all about the materials contained in the accretion process...such as the Cathode and Anode, are made from certain metals that don't dissolve away in saltwater, and don't corrode or rust.

Now that I'm aware of how the process works in all, and how powerful the chlorine gas and hydrogen are I'm about 98% sure a 300 gallon system would be too small to use to increase coral growth with this process, as the bi-products of electrolyzing saltwater are too strong and would kill the contents of the tank without constant water changes, meaning you'd have to have a source for raw saltwater...living by the beach would be helpful.

[MoonSoft]

Well i guess what i am talking about is similar, i had a light fixture that had rusted oland the screws and was actually traveling down a line of salt creep and into the tank i could feel the small current in the water but i noticed AWSOME coral growth and coloration when this occurred, and i was wanting to do something small scale for the benefit of the hobby no bio rock or some large scale operation, anyone have any idea how something like this would work in a smaller aquarium.... just like my (accidental) version?
what about using titanium?

[jman785]

Titanium also will dissolve quickly when electricity is passed thru it while its in saltwater. You should do some researching with the links you provided and look up some patents, they are attcahing frags to the wire mesh structure, which is feeding the frags anywhere from 3-12 volts, and they are getting good growth from them...its the same Bio-Rock process, you should read a little more and check out Goreau's and Hilbertz website and you'll catch on....search for patents on mineral accretion.

[MarineScientist19]

hmm in the biology world this has never been approached but i have a 120v 0.14AMP static probe and my tank is grounded ill give it a try, its not like it can kill them as long as u dont have anything more than .2 W/pWATT AMPs going with that current (takes 14 amps to stop a heart) remember its the amps that kill things not volts

[MarineScientist19]

plus ya gotta take in to account conductivity, salinity, PH, hardness, Oxygen Levels,all of these plus more control current paths, intensity ect ect i STONGLY RECOMMEND THAT NO ONE WITH A GLASS HEATER DO ANYTHING LIKE THIS (BANG NO MORE HEATER) lol use a titanium with a grounding plug!

[Robwsup]

Hey guys, I know this a bit old, but saw I was mentioned earlier in the thread. (sup Jman?)

The experimenting I have done, does show increased coral growth. The main problem with the process in a closed system is two-fold.
First, is the removal of the pure Cl- gas produced through electrolysis. There are a few ways to overcome this, and the best method is a combination of the separate methods.

Second, is the rapid depletion of Ca, Mg, and CO3 ions. A calcium reactor can keep the calcium and carbonate levels adequate, and MgSO4 additions will keep the Mg up.

The voltages and currents used in these processes are very low.

The anode material is a few of the platinum-based metals, including Ru04 or IrO4.(Ruthenium and/or Iridium Oxides)

Cathodes can be made from any conductive material such as iron or stainless steel.

[Zack]

Thanks for the info Rob. Nice to see that you stopped by :) Hope all is going well with your site!

[gman0526]

Has the new skeletal growth been as brittle as described in other papers/studies? I'm sure i read about it somewhere else that the new growth shows to be more brittle than older growth. And thanks for stopping by and sharing info on your ongoing study. :thumbsup:

[Robwsup]

The accelerated growth does cause the skeleton to be less dense than normal. I wouldn't call it brittle with the exception of maybe M. digitata species.

[jman785]

Rob...glad you stopped by :) Good to have an expert on this new technology.

[Robwsup]

Oooh, I'm no expert by any means, just got a little bit of experience with the subject.

[jman785]

Oooh, I'm no expert by any means, just got a little bit of experience with the subject.

I understand that :)

So how are your experiments going with this?

[jman785]

MarineScientist19

(takes 14 amps to stop a heart)



That's false information...as little as 1 amp can kill a human being.

[jman785]

To construct a building component of hard, strong material with preshaped form 10, it is disposed in a volume of electrolyte, such as seawater, and is used as a cathode. An electrical connection 21 is made to the form. An anode 28 is disposed in proximity to form 10. The anode may be iron, steel, lead, platinum, columbium, and for a form of the dimensions specified, the anode may be a sheet which is approximately seven and one-half inches by 24 inches. An anode connection 27 is provided. Electrical connections to the cathode and the anode are in turn connected to a DC electrical source producing a peak output of 200 watts to establish a direct electrical current between the electrodes. The source preferably supplies electrical current of approximately 30 amperes at 6 volts, which in this example yields a current density of approximately 189 mA/sq.ft. and an electric field potential between the electrodes of approximately 6 volts. After supplying electricity for 170 hours, accretion thickness in one experiment conducted on a form like that shown in FIGS. 2 and 3 measured 2.7 cm on the 3/8 inch steel frame and 2.3 mm on the 1/2 inch wire mesh.


This comes directly from the patent.