New Bill in Congress

[FishinInTheDark]

http://thomas.loc.gov/home/gpoxmlc108/h4928_ih.xml

This bill seems to target import and export of all reef related organisms. I have not read it in its entirety, but it may also preclude hobbyists like ourselves from keeping the species we already have. Fragging by anyone not approved by the Secretary of the Interior also appears to be outlawed. (Of course, if we can't posess corals, we can't frag them either!) I see no grandfather clause. . .

I don't mean to be an alarmist, and this bill has been submitted to multiple committees which will hopefully water it down a bit. I can't say I'm entirely opposed to the purpose of this bill, but I think it targets hobbyists while ignoring all the other causes of the decline of our reefs.

Just wanted to pass this along. . .

Conni

[Telco Guy]

I agree. This bill seems a bit too broad. It states the following:
(a) In General- Subject to section 4, it is unlawful for any person to--

(1) take any covered coral reef species within waters under the jurisdiction of the United States;

(2) import into or export from the United States any covered coral reef species;

(3) possess, sell, purchase, deliver, carry, transport, or receive in interstate or foreign commerce any covered coral reef species taken or imported in violation of paragraphs (1) or (2); or

(4) attempt to commit any act described in paragraphs (1) through (3).

So you are wondering what "covered coral reef species" means? Well, here's the kicker. I the very next section it describes this:
(b) Covered Coral Reef Species-

(1) IN GENERAL- For the purposes of this Act, the term `covered coral reef species' means--

(A) any species of coral or ornamental reef fish;

(B) any coral reef species listed in Appendix II of the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) as of the effective date of this Act;

(C) any coral reef species added to Appendix II of CITES after the effective date of this Act, unless the Secretary of the Interior, in consultation with the Secretary of Commerce, finds before the expiration of the 90-day period which begins on the effective date of the inclusion of such species in Appendix II that the take, import, and export of such species do not represent a substantial risk of harm to the sustainability of such species and its coral reef ecosystem; or

(D) any other coral reef species (excluding any finfish, mollusk, crustacean, or other animal or plant species taken for human consumption) the take, import, or export of which the Secretary of the Interior and the Secretary of Commerce have determined, after notice and opportunity for public comment--

(i) presents a substantial risk of harm to the sustainability of such species or of its coral reef ecosystem; or

(ii) results in high mortality rates for individuals of that species due to poor survivorship in transport or captivity.

The alarming part is of course the very first definition which include "any species of coral or ornamental fish!" IMO this is way too broad and will never be passed as is. This would include everything! Even guppies and goldfish! That's not going to fly.

I guess we need to start writing our local congressmen (and women) to point out how absurd this is.

[winnona15]

thats crazy
whats the country coming to when they wont allow its citizens to house and care for fish and coral besides can you not have tank raised fish and or corals

(do excuse the spelling...cant get spel check to work and I aint got all night to spend with Mr Websters)

This is a pretty messed up feel good bill that addresses hobbiest only and not the dozens of other things that have a far greater negative impact on reef and the species from reefs. This bill as written is very disturbing as it could concievable make you an out law cause you fragged a coral and sold it to another reefer.

But its like so many gun laws passed in the last 10 years, by ignornant misguided individuals who for the most part have no clue as to what it is that they are really doing. True enough something needs to be done to ensure the survival of our reefs. True enough collecting techniques using cynide or explosives needs to be stopped. Better care needs to be given to collected species to insure much higher survival rates that importers are currently having True enough aqualturing needs to be developed to ensure that no species becomes extent in the wild. But unfortunately in its current wording this bill poses a serious danger to our hobby and out efforts to preserve reefs and educate others that no nothing about what a wonderful world we really do live in.

Simular bills have been presented in the past and shot down in flames. But like many gun owners...we shouldnt rest on this and assume that intelegence will prevail. I would strongly suggest that you contact your reprisenatives and tell them what parts of this proposed bill that you like , dont like, and why you do or dont like it and that thier response and actions in regards to this bill will have a bearing in the way that you vote. That (you vote) is something they can understand! You have to remember that for every letter they get opposing a bill that there are more than likly a dozen others that oppose it and just havent expressed it.

Think about gun owners and all of the flack that gun owners (law abiding) and manufactures and dealers have taken in the last decade over so called crime control laws that were more about guns and putting a industry out of buisness than it was in reducing crime. There is a lot of crying right now about the Assault Weapons ban sunsetting and of course columbine shooting was brought up in the news today with many claiming that that tragidy would be prevented if assualt weapons were banned. For anyone who has a clue, the assualt weapons ban was in effect then and of course it didnt prevent the tragedy did it. Just like outlawing reef keeping will not save a reef from pollution. Back to the voting issue...how many reefers out there are elgible voters? Well there are about 30 million plus gun owners. If they (gun owners) all band together think about how huge a voting block that could form. That could easily swing just about any election! Think back to the 2000 presidential election and about how many few votes seperated the winner from the defeated.

If we like our hobby, and I am sure that we all do, then it would behoove us to get together and voice our opinion about this and make our voices be herd. This bill is nothing but a feel good bill for some polititian to jump on so they can claim how enviromentaly concerned they are and how they are working thier hardest to ensure the reefs are here for our children to enjoy. Wheather this bill has a chance or not its up to us to really "educate" our reprisenatives and ensure that our hobby will be here for years to come and get some "real" laws passed that will truely protect the reefs and still provide for our hobby. I have already wrote a number of people in office regarding this and I am sure I will write even more...

Just a suggestion to those who want it.....

[gman0526]

I'm with you 100%, I think we should get our point across and have our side heard about this matter. We have one of the most expensive hobbies out there and spend a lot of $$$.

I dunno, maybe all the SW forums members should create an united front to have our voices heard.

This reminds me about an article I read in a UK aquarium magazine I just picked up (I forgot the name...), they're talking about banning the sale of GOLDFISH!!!! to kids that are 16yrs or younger. They're saying that the kids are not responsible enough to take care of the fish. Now I tell you what, if back in 1982 when I was 9yrs. old my granmother had not given me my first 10 gal. fish tank that coincidently had 2 goldfish in it, I would never had been interested in this hobby, and I'm sure that many of you were introduced to the hobby the same way.

How about all the crap that so many tourists end up dumping on the reefs? I have seen it first hand when I snorkle. Me and my buddy have done a lot of voluntary cleaning in the last 2 yrs. and let me tell you each time we pull out more than 3 large garbage bags full of crap!!!

My point exactly Gman'

I dont mind Rogering up and "giveing a little inorder to take a little" and there could be some improvements made on our part as hobbiest and as an industry. But thuis bill doesnt address the horrendous amount of pollution thats being dumped in the ocean, doesnt address the development of what was once pristine beaches, mangrove swamps, or eel grass flats. Its doesnt address the damage that a boat anchor from one thoughless boater can do to a reef, something I have seen first hand.

I do a lot of fragging of corals myself and this bill doesnt guarentee me that I will continue to be able to do so or that I will be able to meet thier approval as a "authorized" facility. I mean its a total crap shoot. I have a lot of money invested in brood stock, a lot more money invested in equipment and about 60 frags in my tanks right now that have been aqua-cultured and present no impact what so ever to a reef which is a small fraction of the capacity I could producing at the moment. I am planning to expand this by the first of the year to about double of what I can currently do. But I am not so sure that I will ever be able to "qualify " my small operation as a "approved commercial facility". Its hobbiest like me that are out there doing little things like that on the side as an extension to our hobby as opposed to a commercial buisness that could take a signifagant load off of wild harvesting from reefs. If this bill should get passed think about how many people like me are going to be shut down. With all the then forthcoming restrictions in coral availablitlity the prices for things in this hobby will sky rocket. With such limited availability and prohibitive cost, just how many will be able to afford this hobby then?

Like you I remember when my mom got me my first very own 10 gallon tank with a couple of guppies, mollies, platties and what not. That was more than 30 years ago! Thats what got the ball rolling for me too. Imagine all of the experiences I would have missied out on all of the past years. Maybe I would have never gained an interest in saltwater tanks if not for that experience at such a young age. Maybe I wouldnt care if the the reefs survive the next decade. I mean ignorance does breed stupidity. Proof of my point...

I am also an avid hunter and out doorsman. If it werent for that past time I would have no idea of the concept of conservation, I wouldnt have an appreciation for the great outdoors. As a hunter its not about going out into the woods and wasting Bambi. Its about the whole package! Its about good clean fresh air, a chance to see tons of wildlife and things most take for granted everyday, taking time out for myself to relax and enjoy all that mother nature has to offer, as much as possibly putting some venison steakes on the dinner table at the big family Christmas dinner or Thanks Giving dinner and knowing how thanful I am to be having the best meal that the world can offer. The amount of money I dump into that pursuit is unreal. In addition to my hunting license, thier is guns, bullets, camping gear, vehicles and plane filghts to get there, sometimes hunting lodges, range fees for practice before the opening day of the season getting prepared. Then there are all of the habitat improvements that I do, plots of food planted to feed wild life all year long and ensure that they survive the winters, duck nest boxes that get put up every year, nesting areas that get created to ensure that in the comming fall thier will be plenty of wild life in out fields, woods, and wet lands. Ducks Unlimited have done more to preserve and create additional wet lands that our Gorverment that is funded by tax payers have by far!!!

Apply all of those things about our hobby. How many industries are going to go out of buisness over night due to lack of hobbiest in the market place. How many people do they employ. How much money in tax revenues do they bring to the city and state. Since many could be out of buisness what other buisness is going to sponsor your childs little league team next year?

Not banding together and making our voices herd is shear stupidity at best. Not writing your reprisentative and telling them how you feel even if this bill doesnt have enough support to pass is insane. If you wait until it does have a lot of support you might not be able to turn the tide in the fight and you just might lose the hobby you hold near and dear to your heart.

Take some notes from Gun Owners that are politically active after the 1992-2000 presidential reign. The NRA went from being just another lobby group to being the second most powerful lobby organization with millions of politically active memebers, even more suppporters and look at just how many buisness back them up too. Thats a huge voting political block capable of swinging any election here in the US if it really wants too...

Just some food for thought..............

[FishinInTheDark]

I want to point out that you do not have to be as adamant or as eloquent as our friend Expat to express your opinion to your representatives. Especially now that you can shoot off an email simply stating something like, "I am opposed to h4928 because it targets aquarists without addressing the true causes of the demise of our international reefs." Your name, address and phone number would need to be included.

I did an internship for Congress right after I graduated high school. Mostly, I made copies and answered phones, but I got to see how things work. Every telephone call, letter, fax, visit, or cocktail napkin scribble (no email back then) was tracked as to it's core issue. Everything that came from a constituent was responded to in some way. Things from non-constituents were forwarded to the proper Representative. If one of our constituents cared enough to contact us, our staff would research the issue and respond according to the philosophy of our boss. (Of course, there were the voters whose letters regarding the world's impending demise by planet Zorach were not deeply researched, but they were tallied, categorized and kept!)

At any rate, to make a long story longer: write your Representatives. The one I worked for took notice. I'm willing to bet that nearly all others do. It's certainly worth ten minutes of your time!

True enough to be sure, I do agree with you. I just hate seeing people sitting around complaining about something but lacking the initiative to take the 5-10 minutes it takes to let your reprisenative know how you regardless of what ever position you have. There are still way too many that feel as though "I am only one person, one vote, I really dont count or cant make a difference". But people do listen you just have to speak up so you can be herd.

Its not the end of the world as we know it. We dont have to band together and form a huge voting block as the NRA for example does often times. Sorry if i came off that way.

The point I ment to make was if your concerned, speak up! Be herd! Dont bury your head in the sand and hope things in life goes your way...it may or may not.

[jman785]

This bill stinks.

I don't think it'll pass anyway. Hopefully we have some educated congress members that'll realize what this will do to business's ...

This is like the Ford Pinto case, when the judge realized what the jury said, when they said Ford had to pay $1 more than their net worth...this would crash Ford, and all of the people that built parts for their cars, and interiors, etc. The judge realized this, and wouldn't let it happen.

Hopefully we have someone like this in Congress that understands the problems with this bill.

[oceandvr]

At first glance of the quoted text, this bill does appear to be too broadly encompassing. CITES does cover a lot already. And I don't see any account aquaculture in that proposed bill, which is a large industry here in Florida.

Does anyone know who sponsored it and where it's currently at in Congress?

Nancy

[FishinInTheDark]

Let's see. Here's the language that is startling:

(a)In generalSubject to section 4, it is unlawful for any person to— (1)take any covered coral reef species within waters under the jurisdiction of the United States; (2)import into or export from the United States any covered coral reef species; (3)possess, sell, purchase, deliver, carry, transport, or receive in interstate or foreign commerce any covered coral reef species taken or imported in violation of paragraphs (1) or (2);

If we can't "possess" it, we can't aquaculture it!

The bill is sponsored by Rep Ed Case of Hawaii. I believe it's currently waiting on Executive comment, and has been for quite some time. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/D?d108:1:./temp/~bd1bHw:@@@X|/bss/d108query.html|

Good point FITD!

The intent of this bill is good but like so many other bills its written by the ignorant that have no clue as to what it is they are really doing. Sadly I dont think they care as this is clearly a "Feel Good" bill.

Its much like the ineffective assault weapons ban, which I am still suprized that it even passed back then. Its purpose was to outlaw them but becuase it was so poorly written I was able to remove a few features such as the bayonet and Bayonet lug, install a non-folding stock, remove the flash suppresor and walla! All of the sudden my AR-15/AK-47 is still legal! Laws like that proved just how stupid our politians really are despite thier extensive educations at such renown institutions as Yale, Harvard and others!!!

Just like with the AWB if I can qualify as a aquaculture facility under the proposed bill I almost hope it passes. With some of the coral colonies I have I could make big stupid dollars selling frags! But just as outlawing the hunting of animals has cuased many problems in africa so will this bill!

[FishinInTheDark]

Ray, you couldn't make moneyeven if you qualified, because no one except others who qualify could buy them from you, and it would be illegal for you to sell them to anyone who didn't qualify!

But, if you do qualify, I would like to petition to be a "satellite research facility" affiliated with yours!

[oceandvr]

Conni ~ thanks for the link. In reading over the text, it makes me wonder if this bill will supersede Federal and/or State laws already in place for commercial and recreational collectors, etc.

Here in Florida, commercial fishers (with the appropriate permits and/or licenses) may aquaculture live rock and/or harvest certain soft corals, corallimorphs, gorgonians, inverts, and fish and sell them. Recreational folks may also harvest or collect certain soft corals, corallimorphs, gorgonians, etc., with appropriate licenses for themselves.

Makes me wonder how this bill will be interpreted for these people (and those similarly situation around the US). Has there been dicussion within the marine life industry about this bill and it's potential effects? I'll have to visit the MAC site to see what, if anything is being said there as well.

I for one, would like to see protections for reefs, however, I believe that it needs to be fair and balanced for all involved. Not an easy task - maybe even unreachable...

Nancy

[FishinInTheDark]

It's certainly a fine line. I totally agree with you. This bill seems to overregulate. As is often the case, the powers that be are addressing the exception, not the rule. Of course, there are hobbyists like myself who will be bitterly disappointed by a bill like this, but what about marine store owners and their employees, or all of the people who work in the industry of import, distribution, and aquaculture? We're talking about financial ruin! There are provisions for permits for certain facilities, but if the consumer is eliminated, so will be the manufacturer/distributor.

Its not going to interpt a difference from the two that is clear cut and correctly enforcable and thats half the problem with this bill. It also addresses jusyt the little guys, the hobbyist industry and none of the other industries that cause way more damage to a reef. It will have to work much like the CITIES agrrements do where I have to have an import approval number assigned to each specimen much like my Large Boas from Guyana did when I had the male imported.

Yeah probably right conni every rose seems to have its thorn, but you know where I was trying to go with it...LOL. It was a good stoy and it was working for me, you just screwed up a perfectly good pipe dream I will have you know.... :lol:

[oceandvr]

Hopefully it takes a while for this bill to move and when it gets to public hearings, that all interested parties speak up. It does need serious revision. However, with that ... I do think that one good thing about a bill like this, is its potention for more scientific research (like abundance studies, etc.). We need so much more data to make informed decisions.

[tepelus]

it would hurt those that deal with the importing of the animals, etc....but what about those companies that make the equipment, salts, additives, etc. as well? without the animals there would be no point in making all the things needed to keep them alive. my two cents.

[BoldAsBrass]

I agree with Conni, it is our civic duty to make our elected people aware of how we feel. If they don't know how we feel, we got nothin' else to say.

[marshalrckman]

This is crazy with out hobbiests like ourselves many species of coral and fish may not be alive today.The scientists arnt the scientists we the hobbiests are the scientists!