Solutions to resolve a bacteria bloom???

[Bertsch]

I have been fighting cloudy water for a month and a half in my 54 corner. I feel like I have tried everything, continuing cleaning of the glass, the filter, changing media, cleaning substraight, and regular water changes. To date nothing has worked. While poking around the internet for more research, I came across articles outlining exactly what I am dealing with, white cloudy (milky white) water, which indicates a bacteria bloom. The problem is I can not find out how to resolve this issue. After visiting the LFS the advice I was given is to ride it out, dont do a water change since that enhances the bloom.

Any other advice, there has to be something that can be done to finally rid the tank of the bloom?

[MikeS]

Are you dosing calcium of any kind? If so....what are the levels...

I see water parameters for 7-18-04 in your sig....are these still pretty much the same?

Mike

[nbaker]

I see one chem level, that after reading alot of hobbiest problems lately might help. Phosphates, I think I spelled that right, upstoday was having a green water epadimic and well maybe it related? Have you a test kit for such? Upstoday was even using RO water.

[nbaker]

mike thats just weird... same minute on the money.

I forgot about calcium... I try

[MikeS]

well....just trying to rule out calcium...

His sig says he has .40ppm ammonia....that's pretty high and can cause cloudy water...

Don't "wait it out"....you'll lose livestock....do some water changes and refresh the carbon...leave everything else alone....

I'd also try to get that SG down to 1.024 or so...but only lower .001/day....

Mike

[upstoday]

Yeah I was having that problem with the green soup. I've gotten the phosphates down to 0 in my tank now and so far so good. I hoping that it's finished for me.

Good luck Bertsch

[Bertsch]

I have never checked for calcium, I thought that test was mostly utilized when you have corals. Since I do not have corals, I never thought of testing for it.

As for the levels, I checked them this morning
Nitrite - 0.00
Ph - 8.0/8.1
Nitrate - .30
Ammonia - .40
Specific Gravity - 1.028

I added some drops last night for the filter, Filter Aid is what its called. It is supposed to clump the junk together so the filter can remove addition stuff from the tank. I was hesitant to use it but at this point I am willing to try anything.
I have half the trays in the filter using carbon, which was changed three weeks ago. I am a loss for what to try, I didn't think 'wait it out' was the answer, especially with the amount of time the water has been like this

thanks all!

[MikeS]

Your tank is still cycling. Change all the carbon again, and do some small water changes, get the SG down to 1.024 or so....

Mike

[Bertsch]

Still cycling? The tank has been running since late Feb, did I possible cause a cycle? I didnt think it would continue for this length of time?

[gman0526]

The ammonia readings are way high that is a pretty good indication of a cycle or matbe you're overfeeding the tank. And like Mike stated earlier in the thread that might cause cloudy water. As far as the "wait it out" the only way i can see water changes helping to mantain the bloom is if you use tap water. R/O shouldn't feed anything that might be blooming in your tank.

[Bertsch]

i do use tap water when doing a water change. There are a couple of reasons for using tap water.
I first do not have the funds to purchase are the minerals that are supposed to go back into the RO water. I also do not have the space to place a gallon of water at a time until there is enough water to do a change. For these two reasons, and a couple more, I use tap water. I add stress coat to dechlorinate the water prior to introducing it into the tank. Is there something else I should be adding to the water prior to adding it into the tank?

[cich1]

have you recently removed the filter media from your canister? if so you could have lost some bacteria causing the tank to go through another cycle and would explain the bacteria bloom, i've done this myself in freshwater tanks

[nbaker]

The RO units can be set up with a garden hose out side, but yeah I know what you mean about the money. As for your chems, the ammonia should be at .0 ppm at all times if possible the carbon will sometimes help with little spikes here and there but the old way to get it to come down that much naturally, is with a water change. Have you ever tested any of your tap water? Just for get's, i'd suggest testing it for ammonia and nitrate. They are so high it's almost as if it might be high be for it goes in there.

I can't afford the RO unit either I added a "PUR" filter to catch the metal bit's and such and before that all of my tap water had traces of ammonia in it. HTH

[Bertsch]

fantastic idea using brita or pure water filters I dont even do that
just tested the tap water and its results are
Amonia & Notrate are both pretty darn close to 0

As for removing the media from the canister, the only thing replaced recently has been two of the filters them seleves and replacing the carbon. I have washed off the other media to remove any buildup on them. Buildup being gunk and what appears to be 'silt'

[MikeS]

Ok...I see a few problems here....

The tap water is defiantely part of the problem...stress coat may remove cholrine and chloramines, but I don't believe it will do anything to remove anything else present in the water. The sooner you can use RO/DI water, the better.

You really don't need to add anything to the RO/DI water (other than salt for water changes) and you should be using it for all freshwater topoffs between water changes.

Replace the carbon, but don't wash off the "gunk" on the pads....all you are doing there is killing off a lot of the bacteria that will help cycle your tank.

How much and how often are you feeding the tank? You could be overfeeding as well....

Mike

[cich1]

clean your filter pads when you do water changes, save the old water from the tank and rinse your pads and media in that water that way your not killing off the bacteria living in the pads

[MikeS]

that's a good suggestion, cich....

Mike

[nbaker]

Mike I have no sorce for RO at the momnet, is the PUR water filter somthing I shouldn't bother with? I thought it would help.. Just curious?

[cich1]

i think the PUR water filter is better than tap water becuase it does remove clorine and alot of heavymetals and micro organisims, but looking at the cost to use comparison in this link you could get a ro/di unit for what it cost to operate the PUR filter
http://www.waterfiltercomparisons.net/WaterFilter_Comparison.cfm

[MikeS]

The PUR is better than nothing....but it won't remove phosphates or nitrates from the water....

Mike

[cory raab]

I was reading your posts and got kind of lost. What more are you looking to remove out of tap water then chlorine and chloramine? And YES his SG is way to high. You are flirting with Dead Sea numbers. Running a good diatom or micron filter will help. His tank should have been cycled by now.(set up in Feb.) The biggest thing to do is not to disturb all of your bio. filtration at ounce. I you clean the substrate, dont mess with your other filtration and vise versa. Also just so you know most tap water does not contain nitrates. The two biggest down falls to tap water is phosphates and silicates. Both are what alge feeds off of. There are many people out there that use tap water and do just fine. I use to be one of those people. Yes I do have a RO unit now and I have noticed an improvement. Good luck with all.

[MikeS]

What more are you looking to remove out of tap water then chlorine and chloramine?.

phosphates, nitrates, metals,....the list goes on..... :-D

His tank should have been cycled by now.(set up in Feb.) The biggest thing to do is not to disturb all of your bio. filtration at ounce. I you clean the substrate, dont mess with your other filtration and vise versa. .

I think that is part of the problem....either the cycle is incomplete because of more nutrient input than the system can handle, or (more likely) it is incomplete because of inadequate denitrifying bacteria. I'm guessing a combination, but mostly the latter....

Also just so you know most tap water does not contain nitrates..

Hmmmm.....That probably varies quite a bit depending on your location...but I honestly have yet to test a sample of my local tap water that has been totally nitrate free. Just to see, I ran a test on our tap water just prior to posting, and I got .4 mg/L nitrate. Thats fairly low, but present nonetheless. And this level does change, we get our water from a few different sources...river, ground water, storage, ect. I have noticed that our tap water nitrate levels can swing greatly from time to time, depending I'm guessing on what water source is being tapped at the time...I have seen MUCH higher nitrate test results than .4 mg/L on my local tap water.

The two biggest down falls to tap water is phosphates and silicates. Both are what alge feeds off of...

Agreed...

Bottom line....let the tank cycle...but watch the ammonia levels if you are protecting livestock. Control these levels with carbon, skimming, and water changes, but avoid doing anything that will hurt the biofilter.

Mike

[FishinInTheDark]

Just to chime in about the tapwater nitrates: I emailed my water treatment plant, because I was getting a reading of 10 in my tapwater. I got a report of that was in our tapwater, and the official reading was 6. I think most tapwater does include nitrates at varying degrees.

Start looking through the Net for your water treatment plant. Go ahead and get a breakdown of your water. They don't mind sending this out, because they have to report these numbers anyway.

Conni

[cich1]

my tapwater stays about 10ppm also, i try to keep nitrates low in my fw tanks which requires changing about 150 gallons a week, makes doing 5g a week in my sw tank seem like a piece of cake :)

[cory raab]

Mike,

Maybe I should have made my self clear on some of the tap water thing. Go back and read what the gentleman wrote about Stress Coat. Most of those type of chemicals only remove Chlorine and chlorimine. Most chemicals that say they remove more dont really totally remove them. They make them to where there not as toxic allowing you bio. filtration to be more efficent in removing them. And mostwater test kits are not accurate enough to give you an accurate test when it comes to nitrates right out of tap water. Lamotts are by far the best. And I said Most tap water. :) It is hard to get the whole picture when we are not there with the person who has an issue. I have been dealing with peoples tank problem or about 12 years now ( that does not make me an expert) and have seen so many diferent thihgs in both fresh and salt. The problems I have seen have come from being on the retail side of things along with my own. Water conditions vary all over the country. When I lived in Fargo, ND and managed a pet center I was sent a water update from the water dept. explaining the increase useage of chlorimine due to the poor water quality that became due to the water shortage. ( 4X the amount the the average ) Things also change during different times of the year. I appligize if I came of the wrong way. I just feel more questions should have been asked. And the whole thing got off track from the first post.
Thank You,
Cory R

[FishinInTheDark]

I just noticed you're another Wyomingite, Cory. Welcome!

Conni

[MikeS]

Yes, the thread did get somewhat off topic, they tend to do that from time to time.... :lol: :-D

The forum exists so that we can look at several opinions and/or debate a subject in a hopefully friendly manner :-D (so far so good in this tread I think)

Ok...back to the original topic. Cory, you stated that you felt that not all the right questions were asked...what questions would you have like to seen asked in addition to the ones in the previous posts?

Obviously, since we are not located where he is, we are dependent on his description of the problem, the information he provides us, and the questions we ask to make an educated "guess" as to his problem. Based on the information he provided, my best guess is that his cloudiness is most likely due to an incomplete/ongoing cycle in his tank. Strong cycle's can cause water cloudiness in some tanks, and the data he provided suggests that this is probably the case. The high SG probably isn't helping matters as well. The use of tap water, while probably not the main problem, likely is not helping either, and IMO more than likely contributing to some degree. However, you are correct Cory, I have no way of knowing what his tap water is like unless he provides me with that information. I'm simply making a generalization there, based on the widely accepted opinion that tap water is not the greatest water source for reef tanks.


Ok....back OFF topic here for a bit.... :-D

Cory, I agree, LaMotte tests are great, we used them exclusively in the brewery I worked in...

http://www.lamotte.com/

Nitrates in tap water....hmmm

I did some research, and I was unable to come up with any national figures on a percentage of water supplies showing nitrates. Most of the statements I found were pretty general, indicating that areas with a lot of runoff from agricultural projects showed elevated nitrate levels. Or the other info I found was pretty area-specific, like a single community or individual water treatment plant.

I think this is an interesting topic worth looking into more deeply...I'm going to start a thread on the subject in the Advanced Forum....

http://www.coralforum.com/ftopic2568.html

Mike

[Bertsch]

Howdey yall -
back from vacation which is why I have not been on the forum for a week.
Anywhoo -
Update on the situation. The friday that I posted the topic i did a thougho cleaning of my protein skimmer. No other changes made to the tank.
When I woke up the next morning and got the car ready I glanced into the tank, I didnt want to turn the light on too early but I noticed the tank was alot clearer.
Later in that evening my girlfriend called my roomate to check on the dogs and I asked him about the tank. Amazingly it was clear, no more haze. I came home today, and other than very minor growth on the glass, the tank was crystal clear.
My roomate does not bother with the fish other than to feed them, that could be proven with the second tank having all sorts of red alge growing on the glass. I am going to test the level in the AM, still trying to get things organized this evening.
Thanks all for all the information.

[MikeS]

glad your tank cleared up! :D

Just out of curiousity, could you post your current ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels?

thanks

Mike

[Bertsch]

I just updated the info for the tank. FYI - After I checked all the levels, and the SG continued to be at 1.028 I added 1 gallon of freshwater.

[MikeS]

chem levels in in 54 Corner as of 08/01/04
Nitrite - 0.00
Ph - 8.0/8.1
Nitrate - .30
Ammonia - .40
Specific Gravity - 1.028
temp - 80


Hmmm.....you still have some ammonia in there, but no nitrite. have you tried verifying that ammonia level with a different test kit? I'd suggest doing that, just to check...

On the SG, you can lower it by removing a gallon of water from the tank, and relpacing that gallon with fresh RO/DI. Do this once a day until the level drops to 1.024-1.025 or so.

Curious, what SG do you make your fresh salt/RODI mix prior to adding it to the tank? Also, you are topping off all evaportated water from the tank with fresh (no salt) water, right? Just checking...


Mike

[Bertsch]

I use instant ocean as the SG. When I am replacing the water, I have always added salt to the water. (1/2 cup per gallon added) I have added two gallons of fresh water the past two days, which has lowered the SG to 1.027.
I should get a second test kit for amonia. what is odd is my roomate told me last week the skimmer was working fine, then all of a sudden on wend til friday nothing was coming from the skimmer and the tank began to get cloudy again. I am guessing another bacteria bloom began?
I put some drops into the tank again yesterday which is supposed to clump the extra stuff together, and the skimmer and filter began to pull the crud out of the tank again so its clear. I am hoping if I can get the SG down this issue begins to clear itself up.

[cich1]

what test kit are you using for ammonia? when i test with my Aquarium Pharmicutical kit it shows .50ppm but if i test with seachem test it shows 0ppm, in fact i bought the seachem test because i didn't trust the results of my AP kit

[MikeS]

Always do all topoffs due to evaporation with FRESH water...if you use salt water, your SG will rise...

Mike

[Bertsch]

I use also Aquarium Pharmaceuticals.
I will get another kit tomorrow to see if there is a difference between the two

[Bertsch]

I purchased another test kit today, aquarium systems. This test has my amonia at 0. I had to go to another FS b/c my LFS onlt stocked the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kits. The tanks SG has gone down to 1.026 after daily water swaps. The tank continues to be cloudy only clearing up once the skimmer begins to get the gunk out.

[MikeS]

Ok...the zero ammonia test result makes more sense along with the 0 nitrite and 30 nitrate...and I'd bet it is correct...but you have two results on two kits, lets get a third opinion...see if a friend has an ammonia test kit or take some of your water to the LFS and have them test it for ammonia...

Hmmm...

You stated that the cloudly water clears up once the skimmer "kicks in"....what do you mean by that? Are you running the skimmer all the time?

Do you notice that this haze improves or worsens along with certain events, like feeding, time of day, ect...

How much and how often are you feeding the tank? What are you feeding it?

How are you measuring the SG of the tank? Hydrometer? If so, what is the temperature calibration of the hydrometer? (it should be printed somewhere on the hydrometer)

Let's try to get this figured out... :D Can we have some more detailed water parameters? ie test it for everything you have a test kit for...calcium and alkalinity as well if you test for that...

Also, please provide detailed information on anything you are dosing into the tank, including food....brand names, how often, how much, ect...

Mike

[Bertsch]

Food - twice a day - I use Ocean Nutrition frozen food
In the AM - 1 frozen cube of Spirulina Formula (I switched up from their brine shrimp to just try something different)

In the PM - same as with the the AM but every other day a cube of Formula 2.

Nothing goes into the tank. The only thing that has recently been added was used to clump the stuff in the tank together so the filter could capture it. This was only after the initialy foggyness stayed there.

I use an instant ocean hydromiter, checked online and its specifications for temp is between 65 - 85, and I keep the tank around 78-79.

When I speak of the skimmer kicking in, I currently have an Prizm skimmer. Yes, the skimmer runs all the time. I have heard both ways, run all the time, only run at night/day. I have never really seen it in full action until recently. I cleaned the entire thing top to bottom and when I put it back on the tank where it began to skim. Now I am not getting this mysterious dry foam, the cup fills with foam which turns into nasty water. When I add water to the tank, previously sg water, the skimmer went nutts all of a sudden and would fill the cup almost imediatly.

While I was on vacation, my roomate said he was emptying a half full cup every day, then all of a sudden starting that wed. nothing was being produced, and the tank began to get cloudy again. When ever the skimmer stops producing foam and filling the cup is when the tank begins to get cloudy. From what I have heard/read this is because a bacteria bloom can stiffle a skimmer to the point it does not opperate properly. BUt when the skimmer is working properly, the tank clears up.
Yesterday, the skimmer just stopped pulling anything from the tank and stopped producing foam, and the tank became cloudy. I simply cant get it to work right for more than a week at a time.

When the haze is there, it always there. It does not improve or get worse as the day progresses.

I think I have everything, except the new paramiters, kinda hard to get those while at work. Maybe the boss will let me go home to check that out :D , but she wont be in for another 3 hours

[MikeS]

You might be overfeeding....try cutting back about 50%....that should still provide the tank with plenty of food....

Mike

[Sugar Magnolia]

FWIW, I was running a prizm skimmer and had a hell of a time adjusting the skim rate so I eventually gave up and bought a Remora which I have been very pleased with.

I'd say cut back on the feeding as well. If you don't have a hefty clean up crew in the tank, all that uneaten food is going to sit on the bottom of the tank and in the crevices of LR. It may be worth the money to beef up your cleaning crew. Add a variety of hermits and snails so that they will all go for different parts of the tank.

[Bertsch]

I have to add more to the cleaning crew that I do know. I currently have about 20 or so blue leg hermits, 20 or so snails, 3 turbo snails, 2 red leg hermits, and 2 cleanrer shrimp.

As for the prizim skimmer, its a pain. It works for 3/4 days then stopps. So I turn the flow up a milli-meter and it works again for a couple of days. But when it is working it clears up the tank. When its not working, the tank becomes cloudy. It has become a PITA but I hate to not use it and basiclly toss away 120 bucks. Thank goodness I bought the other tanks prizim on e-bay for more half price including shipping.