Do actinics really help sps corals?

[pomme]

Do actinics really help sps corals?

Hiya guys i have been thinking about whether to use actinics on my new set-up. As i am going to be using 3 250watt se or 400watt se 20k, and 2 400watt se 10k. Have been wondering whether actinic supplementation would help. As i think the 20k has around the same wavelength as the actinic with them peaking around 420.

Andrew

[MikeS]

IMO actinic supplimentation with VHO's is a good idea when dealing with SPS, clams, anemones, or high light LPS....

Mike

[jman785]

Some corals, aren't able to get a lot of white light, because its filtered by the water...into actinic light...which is why its so blue when you look up when your scuba diving, etc.

So I'm guessing actinic light, really does help SPS Corals grow.

[Condiman]

I always wondered that myself. :wink:

[Paidbychrist0825]

they are adapted for the blue light that is allowed through. i would definately say blue would be used more effiecently than white, cause only so much of the white is usable light, whereas most of the actinic blue would be usable
EDIT: i had a speling error that made the sentence read like: "huh" and my html NEVER works

[MikeS]

Blue light "penetrates" farther into water than other wavelengths...that's why many corals are adapted to use blue light in photosynthesis...

Mike

[pomme]

hiya guys i understand that blue light is essential, as your reds etc get filtered out first. but as most acros bought (if you get wild) come from the top few metres, then a bit of white light is getting to them.

but also do you think that say a blv 20k, or a radium bulb has enough in the 420nm range to sustain the corals. as i know it wont fluresce (spelling?) because the 20k will have other peaks so drumming out the fluoresce even though its there.

[jman785]

A 20k bulb, would be great for your coral growing, although a 6500k would be more sufficient, although it has a yellow tint, to the light...so you'd probably end up having to supplement some actinics with it, to keep it from looking so yellow. 6500k offers the best growth for a bulb...but it offers no actnic, thus why you can go with say a 10k-14k bulb, or just go with the 6500k and supplement, or you can have ok growth with the 20k, and awesome colors are brought out with a 20k, might I add.

[MikeS]

When I replace my PC's with MH's, I plan on using 2 x 250W Iwasaki 6500K's....my light combo already has 2 x 110 W VHO's....I think that will be a great combo for coral growth and pleasing to the eye....

Mike

[tdevil]

actinic lighting doesnt have any effect on coral growth, the blue'r lighting is for our eyes, so the corals have a diff look, like a white shirt under a black light, boy, does a black light bring back memories, lol

for the best growth, like jman785 said, would be the 6500k bulbs, but most people dont like the looks of that, which is where the actinic bulbs come into play, they also add the dusk/dawn affect :)

Jay

[MikeS]

actinic lighting doesnt have any effect on coral growth

I thought actinic light (420nm blue) has been proven to be the most "useable" light in the spectrum for photosytnesis in corals....

Mike

[tdevil]

actinic lighting doesnt have any effect on coral growth

I thought actinic light (420nm blue) has been proven to be the most "useable" light in the spectrum for photosytnesis in corals....

Mike

yes, that is true, Mike, but, as far as actually penetrating the water, there isnt a bulb that can actually do this, YET, they are developing new bulbs almost every day, so hopefully soon, it looks like it does to the human eye, but the actuall par of the bulb doesnt penetrate water all that great, which is why the 6500k Iwasaki bulb is still the best for growth

a friend has been doing studies on his own time/dime, to help us better understand the lighting for our little slices of the ocean
here is his site, and you can see at the bottom of the page is where the PAR listings are, plus it is a good read :)

http://www.cnidarianreef.com/lamps.cfm

Jay

[nbaker]

yes, that is true, Mike, but, as far as actually penetrating the water, there isnt a bulb that can actually do this, YET, they are developing new bulbs almost every day, so hopefully soon, it looks like it does to the human eye, but the actuall par of the bulb doesnt penetrate water all that great, which is why the 6500k Iwasaki bulb is still the best for growth

a friend has been doing studies on his own time/dime, to help us better understand the lighting for our little slices of the ocean
here is his site, and you can see at the bottom of the page is where the PAR listings are, plus it is a good read

http://www.cnidarianreef.com/lamps.cfm

Jay
this is cool thanks

[MikeS]

but the actuall par of the bulb doesnt penetrate water all that great, which is why the 6500k Iwasaki bulb is still the best for growth

Agreed....Actinic VHO's have nowhere near the penetrating power nor the point intensity of MH. However, the blue light produced by an actinic VHO compared to an equal wattage VHO of a different spectrum will penetrate farther into the tank.

And if blue light is the most "useable" color of the spectrum for photosyntesis in corals, then how would actinic light not be useful for coral growth? Is this a spectrum issue you are referring to or an intensity issue?

When I added VHO's to my light combo, the speed at which my exsisting corals grew and/or multiplied was visibly noticeable.....

BTW....good link on the PAR of the different combos, very interesting.... :-D

Mike

[MikeS]

Here's an interesting debate on the same subject...

http://www.reefs.org/library/article/actinic_lighting.html

Mike

[nanoman123]

i reccomend getting actinics because like mikejs said, corals are addapted in the wild to blue light for photosynthesis, and also its cool and appealing to the human eye when you can turn on your actinics in the morning, then your white lights in mid day, then white lights off at night, than actinics off later.

(i could be wrong because i have yet to set up a big tank, quote my name)

i dont know if that last sentance was correct, grammar wise.



`Matt~

[MikeS]

I'm going to move this to the Advanced Discussion forum...I think it is heading that way... :D

Lighting is always a debated topic....I've seen many debates similar to this in several different forums over the years...

Let's make sure we are all talking about the same thing....The orgional question was "Do actinic lights help SPS corals". If you look at it, that's a pretty broad question!

First...lets define "actinic". "Actinic" is somewhat of a manufacturers made-up word, used to describe flourescent bulbs that supply most of their light predominantly in the blue end of the spectrum. "True" actinic, for purpose of discussion here is a bulb whos light ouput has a spiked wavelength of 420nm. Other bulbs, like "actinic" PC's, tend to spike a bit higher, lots of them around 450nm. For purposes of this discussion, lets consider the term "actinic" as a reference to supplimentation with a flourescent bulb producing 420nm blue light.

As white sunlight passes through water, various colors are "filtered" out. Red is the first to go. Blue light penetrates water more deeply. The deeper you go, the higher the total PAR is provided by blue light. That's why generally speaking, most corals find blue light the most "useable" for photosytnesis.

Although blue light may be the "best" wavelength for photosythesis, is it the ONLY wavelength that corals use? Defiantely not...many can also utilize red, green, ect, especially shallow water corals. IMO that's probably why 6500K MH tend to be recoginzed as the best lights for coral growth. The spectrum of a 6500K MH bulb is very "white" ( bulb is also much more intense)....containing much more red and green than an "actinic" flourescent bulb, thus providing corals with multiple wavelenghts of photosynthetically usable light. As for the astetic aspect, many 6500K MH users suppliment them with actinic VHO's because the blue light tends to render the tank a bit more pleasing to the eye, blending some of the yellow tint produced by the 6500K's out...

Ok....do corals NEED actinic light supplimentation? Depends on the setup. If the photosynthetic needs of the corals are being met by a light source like 6500K MH's for example, then the answer is no....the corals don't "need" supplementation with actinic lighting. Will the corals "benefit" from actinic supplimentation? The answer here is yes...even though the actinics only maybe provide a smaller fraction of the total PAR, they nonetheless add to the total PAR throughout the depth of the tank, particulalry in the shallower areas of the tank, and they add to it in a very useable wavelength.

In a tank like mine, where no Metal Halide bulbs are currently used, actinic supplimentation becomes even more important for coral photosyntesis. Actinic light makes up roughly 50% of my total PAR, and a greater than 50% PAR at the bottom of my tank. Since my PC/VHO combo lacks the point intensity and penetrating power of a MH setup, the more PAR in the useable blue range I can provide my corals, the better off they will be.

To sum it up....in the example of a 6500K MH setup, supplimentation with actinic lights may not be necessary, and may be done with only astetic value in mind, but will still provide corals with additional useable blue light. In "weaker" setups with lower overall PAR levels, providing corals with the maximum amount of useable light becomes more important.

Mike

[tdevil]

nice post Mike, i agree with that, but, pomme, asked if thay were needed along with halides, in his set-up

Do actinics really help sps corals?
Hiya guys i have been thinking about whether to use actinics on my new set-up. As i am going to be using 3 250watt se or 400watt se 20k, and 2 400watt se 10k. Have been wondering whether actinic supplementation would help. As i think the 20k has around the same wavelength as the actinic with them peaking around 420.
Andrew

more light always will helpand as Mike said "actinics do help SPS corals", but with halides this is your choice, which is why i said they wernt ness, flourescent bulbs were first used buy John Burleson, they came from the photgraphic industry, he used them because back then MH bulbs were only 5000k and the flourescent's were 6500k.so back in the old days (middle 80's) the MH needed the supplementation, but with a MH bulb we have today around 12k and up, the supplement really isnt needed, they are used more for changing or bringing out the color of most corals

i do use them and recomend them no matter what lighting is on the tank :)

Jay

[nbaker]

agreed, well said mike.

[MikeS]

6500K MH's are generally recoginzed as the "best" bulb for coral growth. 6500K's provide good intensity across the visible spectrum. If the corals photosynthic needs are being met by the existing lights, actinic supplimentation is not needed, but the corals will benefit from the increased PAR and the addtion of more "blue" light.

Mike

[mojoreef]

Good thread folks. Actinics really dont do much for coral growth or coloration unless you sit the coral very high and close to the surface. The problem is intecity, because of the shape and working method of the light they dont have any real intencity and thus dont drive the light waves very deep. So they are more of a pleasing to the human eye type of thing. Growth and coloration are really two different animals. they are both done by pigment protiens, growth is done with the pigments in zoox and color is done by the pigment protiens in the corals tissue. Each protien pigment (a varity of colors) all have different light waves they can absorb so thier is not one real wave you can say is best as the corals have adapted to handle a variety of different colored light waves that come at them. They have even evolved to the point where the pigment can take in one color and manipulate it to be another color for the coral to use, or the pigment will flourese a color out and to another pigment.
Corals have Zoox which is an algae, actually they are dinoflagellates. they are the same as the nasty ones in our tanks. With in this dino are pigments. A series of chlorophyll’s which are green and carotenoid peridinin which is yellow. (yellow and green make??? brown, thus most corals are brown) now these pigments are basically chemical molecules that possess the ability to absorb visible light photons. and so the process starts. The energy of the light photons are captured by these pigments and transfered through a sytem called ETS (electron transport system). and eventually end up in a reaction center, which leads to the formation of ATP and NADPH . ATP is the food (Hmm andrenlintriphosphate??? (sp). and nadph is reducing power. both form organic compounds the coral can use as food.
Now the ammounts of these pigments in corals is not a carved in sstone thing, they can have more chlorophyll’s and less carotenoid's or visa visa and this can influence the color of the coral and/or clam. So how does that influence the light we use??? most of the pigments chlorophyll have a strong ability to gather light in the blue and violet range. the other more dominant pigment carotenoid peridinin mostly absorbs blue light waves, but does absorb violet and a tiny bit of green. So you make the call on the K of the bulb you wish to use (or combination).
So now lets move away from the aglae that is providing food and take a look at some of the actual colors of the corals, because as we know not all corals are brown (thank God).
Also with in the coral are more pigments. they have a variety of different purposes and requirements. they reside with in the tissue of the coral itself. Now these pigments do not have the ability to traansfer light energy, but it has been found that in very deep waters they ave the ability to alter particular color wave lengths. This is done by absorbing one color and the fluorescing a color the coral can use. SPS or shallow water corals produce large ammounts of pigments under high lighting intencity. So lets get into the meat of it.
Most pigments in coral tissue are called pocilloporin and are catagorized as either Brightly Colored Low Fluorescent Pocilloporins or as Highly Fluorescent Pocilloporins. Highly Fluorescent Pocilloporin pigments have the ability to absorb light with a specific wavelength and then fluoresce or emit this light into a different wavelength. Most of the highly flouresent varity act as UV protectorants. protecting the coral and algae from UV's and to much light. the lower flourescent types tend to help the Zoox pgments convert uv and /or violet leght into something useable.
these pigments absorb light basically with in the zone of 400 to 620 nm. violet to blue to some green and some yellow and some red. they absorb those light but fluorese dofferent colors back out. the colors the fluorese out are the colors we see in oour tanks.
So conclution...sorta. most of the light waves corals use for growth are in the range of blue and violet. this is for food but not necessarly the color of the coral. the pigemnts inside the corals tissue, have a roader range of absorbtion and emit a different color then they absorb (usually). but it has nothing to do with thier feeding process.

Mike

[mojoreef]

Now for coloring :
>Pocilloporin primarily absorbs green/yellow (550-600 nm) light along with some upper UV-A . it emmits a orange/red
>highly fluorescent pocilloporins primarily absorbs light from 310 to 380 nm (UV-B and UV-A) and then fluoresces this as light from 400 to 470 nm (violet/blue).
>highly fluorescent pocilloporin primarily absorbs light from 380 to 470 nm (UV-A, violet and blue) and fluoresces light from 475 to 520 nm (blue and green).
>third type of highly fluorescent pocilloporin primarily absorbs light from 430 to 490 nm (violet and blue) and fluoresces light from 490 to 540 nm (green/yellow).
>Yellow fluorescing pocilloporin primarily absorbs light from 440 to 500 nm (blue) and fluoresces light from 520 to 620 nm (green, yellow and orange).
>Red/Orange Fluorescing pocilloporin that primarily absorbs light from 500 to 540 nm (green) and fluoresces light with wavelengths that are primarily orange to red.


Mike

[tdevil]

great, Mike O. joined, now we are all in for it :)

great post/s Mike, so i was a bit wrong when it comes to actinics helping with the color, humm, interesting, it is more so, the kelvin of the bulb, that is chosen with the the driving power of the bulb or how well the bulb pen's the water :?:

Jay

[mojoreef]

Hey TD how you doing buddy.
You werent wrong, its just a matter of scale. Actinics will put some light in just not alot or very deep. As per color of bulb and intencity and so on, it all pertains to a point. heres an example. Jman mentioned that 6500K are best for growth. now a 6500K bulb covers a vast ammount of waves (all colors) now most of them are useless, but it is so intence that the colors that pertain are strong enough for great growth. blues lights penetrate better so intencity doesnt really play as big a part as they would with other colors.
Folks just have to remember that growth and the corals color are two seperate animals. you can make your corals change colors based on what you shine on them. Heres an example:
Say you want your acros to look more purple and blue, you would then put a bulb in thier that emits 380 to 470 nm (20K). the coral will adapt and the fluorescent pocilloporins pigments with in the coral will begin to dominate, the color they put out is blue and purple, thus your result.

To be honest with the MH bulbs out thier these days, most all 250w and 400 w will grow corals no problem, from thier it just becomes a personal choice as to what the individual likes for an over all look.


take care


Mike

[MikeS]

Hey mojo...glad to have you on the thread...

What do you think about actinics in a light setup like mine (VHO/PC combo)? I noticed a big difference in exixsting coral growth after switching from NO's to VHO's. One VHO is an actinic blue, the other an actinic white (12000K) My PC's are "50/50s".....5000K and "actinic" blue.

My branching hammmer has shown remarkable growth, from just a few polyps to near 50, with dozens of "babies" budding as well.

I realize that my PC/NO combo was probably only giving the system enough light to survive....but the VHO's made a huge difference...love to hear your take on this...

Mike

[mojoreef]

Hiya Mike.
I am sure their would be a marked improvement. I would imagine the upgrade is allowing the coral to actually derive food from its zoox now. I have a little rule I made up when it comes to the light requirements of different corals. "The Flesh Rule" the more flesh/tissue a coral has the more it will get the main portion of its food from Nutrient/capture of outside food source. So say a coral such as a SPS/Acro type has just a very thin veneer or tissue, thus its requirement form outside food sources are very low, and its requirement for food from its internal zoox is very high. 98% form zoox. In your case of a branching hammer the coral is still going to get the vast majority of its food from direct absorbsion and feeding, but will get an ammount from its zoox. Guess would be about 30% from light. So your up grade got the that whole transport system going and gave your coral the boast in food source it needed.
Here is a little fun fact for ya. All a coral needs to get the system started is a flash of intence light (say like a camera flash) from thier the transport system will produce food constantly for hours in very average lighting, then another flash and its back up and going again for a few more hours. A Buddy of mine is heading up experimentation with this at the noaa in florida. They flash a MH on for 3 minutes and then run vho's for 4 hours, then another flash and back to the vho,s. they are growing acro cervacornis (elkhorn). neat stuff. But this type of lighting is ok for growth but really sucks for coloration.


Mike

[MikeS]

Thanks for weighing in...I always enjoy reading your posts, mojo...
(actually, sometimes I "cringe" a little when I see you have responded in a thread I'm posting in...it's like "great.....mojo is in there beating up on my posts".... :lol: ) joking....I always enjoy your insights.... :D

Hey, as long as I have you here and we are talking about lights....I'd like to get your opinion on PC lighting. I know many out there (myself included) don't like PC alone because of suspected spectrum issues. I've read many things that call into question the amount of useable light that PC's actually generate. Most of the claims I have read state that the spectral problems have to do with the way the light is filtered through the PC bulb itself, but I always have a hard time finding a really good, understandable definition of it. Care to shed some of your insight?

thanks

Mike

[mojoreef]

Just the facts Mike Just the facts, lol
I dont know a ton but here is what I do know. Vho and/or PC's emit thier light through the whole length of the bulb, so 12inches to 60 inches or thier about, MH of coarse only about and inch or so, so point source light. I think the main problem with PC's is that most all of them are bent or curved bulbs, the bend/curves skews the wave lengths of light coming out of the bulb, something about the triphosphorus hitting the actual bulb. Sorry not alot of info, but its all I know.


Mike

[MikeS]

thanks mojo...I have read several things about the PC bulb coating affecting the spectrum...ie while light inside the bulb being "filtered" through coated glass, affecting the "trueness" of the color...

Mike

[Funky_Fish14]

In the future, I am planning on doing a larger tank(somewhere between 90 and 150g), that will be 4ft long. For lighting im thinking about using either 2 400W, 10000K or 2 400W 6500K Mogul MH bulbs. These will go at the top inside my hood. Also at the top I will add two lower wattage(probably 55W) White actinics. Closer down, near the water surface I will add, on front and back, 1 PC Actinic(96W), and 1 VHO actinic(unsure of wattage).

This tank will be probably 60% SPS, 25% LPS, and 15% Soft Corals. I've made my decisions based on all of my readings, and experience from others. I am hopping this will provide optimal growth conditions for my corals, and also allow/help them to show their true and brightest colors.

Chris

[Funky_Fish14]

I dont think I explained that well. There will be 1 PC Actinic and 1 VHO actinic near the front of the hood, and same thing near the back.

Chris

[MikeS]

Any particular reason you are going to use both PC and VHO with your MH's? If not, I'd go with MH/VHO....skip the PC actinics. While they are nice and intense watt for watt as far as flourescent bulbs go, the PC actinics spike at a bit higher nm range than VHO "true actinics"...(450+nm vs. 420nm.).

Mike

[Condiman]

After reading all of this I may have to adjust my setup a little bit

[MikeS]

After reading all of this I may have to adjust my setup a little bit

How so, Brad?

Mike

[Condiman]

Possibly changing my PC to VHO. What is the shortest VHO bulb on the market?

[MikeS]

URI makes 24" VHO's....those are the shortest I'm aware of...Same with T5's, I believe 24" is the shortest...

On the PC's....none of the above is to say that PC's don't provide any useable blue light, obviously they do...the question is mostly to what degree. If your MH's are providing the corals with the PAR they need, than a switch may not be necessary...as mojo and others pointed out, at that point flourescent supplimentation's primary benefit is asthetic in nature. However, any increase in useable PAR is goint to have a benefit...

Mike

[Funky_Fish14]

Part of the reason was as you stated, "nice and intense watt for watt as far as flourescent bulbs go", I would like a little more light for what im getting. They still provide some blue though, and are adding more light overall. Yes, they do spike a little higher, but thats why the VHOs are there. Also, I dont know why but im a little biased against VHOs. I know they are great and all, but for some reason I prefer PCs.

Chris

[MikeS]

You could always go with T5's for supplimentation....they also have very good intensity watt per watt, and the colors are correct...

Mike

[Condiman]

I was thinking of making it more visually atractive.

[MikeS]

I was thinking of making it more visually atractive.

In that case, IMO, I kinda doubt you'd see a huge difference visually between the actinic PC's and VHO/T5's...

Visually speaking, the actinic side of my PC 50/50's looks just ever so slightly more "purple" than my URI actinic 03 VHO bulb....

Mike

[Condiman]

I might just leave my pc then.

[icereefer]

I used Pc's when I first started ran them for many month's and added my VHO's to my tank. and to me it made a big difference, my colors where more intence. and things started poping out of my rock that would'nt with the PC's. just my 2 cents.

[Condiman]

My tank is only 18" tall and what I have on there now is 250watt Iswaki and 130 watts of PC acintic.

[icereefer]

my prob tank that I will be setting up is only 17" tall and I will be running a 250 Iswaski and 2 URI actinic's, I'll keep you post how it goes. I was just saying. since I went to VHO's my corals have been doing alot better and grow faster.

[jman785]

I personally think all prop/grow-out tanks should use the Iwasaki, as I think Mike (mojoreef) has backed my statement up, about the 6500K growth to be the most useable because of the many different waves.

[MikeS]

6500K growth to be the most useable because of the many different waves.

this is true....

Mike

[icereefer]

can't agree with you more Jared, on the 6500k Iwasaki bulb. for growing power.

[Condiman]

Color may suck a bit but everything I have grows like a weed.

[jman785]

I love you guys :thumbsup: