canister vs refugium

[Hobbs]

First off, very nice forum, you guys really know your stuff
Hi noob here converting fresh to salt on a 47 gal bow. Looks like its best to start fowlr. Hope i don't insult your intelligence with these simplistic questions but the more research i do the more puzzeled i become.
1. Filter, is eheim or mag cans good or is it better to just build a refugium and sump, and if answer is refugium, with being new setup, how do I get the lvls stabilized without any other filtration?
2. Is it better to add live rock and live sand (after water lvls have stabilized) before fish or get a starter fish to establish stabilization.

[SaltyDawg]

Wellcome to the forum, I will try to help you out with your questions.

1. Since you are going to have a FOWLR there is really no need for a refugium although it couldn't hurt. I have a Magnum 350 canister filter and as long as you keep up with the maintenance there is no problem other than higher nitrate levels, which do pose a problem for your fish, but they can handle higher levels than Corals. Partial water chances make a big difference in Nitrate levels. After your tank has been established for about 4 months you will want to add a protien skimmer to help with filtration.

2. If you intend to use LS (live sand) there a couple of ways you can do this. You can buy sand that is NOT LIVE and put it in the tank then put a couple of pieces of LR (Live Rock) into the tank, over time the sand will become LS. OR you can put all LS in, but that gets expensive, OR you can put mostly regular sand and seed it with LS.

If you are setting up your tank, you should just use sand bought at your LFS and about 10 pounds of LR to start the tank. Make sure your sand bed is at least 2 inches deep, 3-5 would be better. Don't add any fish at this time. The LR and or LS will start the cycle in your tank for you and you can help it along by putting some fish food into the tank.

Monitor you levels every other day until you see the Amonia spike then start monitoring it every day for the end of the cycle. Then you are ready to start stocking your tank. Only add 1 or 2 fish at a time and allow the tank to catch up with the bio-load. Keep monitoring your water and in 3-4 weeks you can add another fish, and I would suggest you only add one at a time after the first fish are introduced into the tank.

Be sure of what you want and also consider LR the same as fish, it will cause a bio-load on your tank when introduced although not as pronounced as a fish. You should be looking at getting around 50lbs of LR for your tank.

Good luck and remember no question is dumb when you are making an investment of this magnitude.

Ask away.
Wayne

[Hobbs]

ok thanks for the advice saltydawg,
I thought I had it all fiqured out until I starting reading everyone putting down canisters. I even had a magnum 350 pre-ordered then canceled it. Getting a canister now and doing a sump, refugium and overflow later is a lot easier on the wallet initially (and easier to justify cost to the spouse). It does almost seem like I might be better off in the long run though if I skip the canister and diy a sump and refugium. :doubt:

Probably would, but sometimes immeadiate needs not to mention the spouses approval, take a higher priority.

The biggest problem with canister filters is lack of maintence on cleaning. Many will slowly but surely neglect them until it gets really bad. They will work great on your FOWLR just fine in my opinion

[Whiskey]

I hate some things about magnum 350 filters. I have 1 and have had nothing but problems with it. I had it on a oscar tank and although the water polishing feature is great, and on a salt tank it would not clog nearly as quick the fact remains ehim is much better in every way. My advice if you have one on a ciclid tank is remove the carbon because it is small enough to clog the small poors in the cartrage and replace it with bagged carbon with large gravel to fill in the extra space. If you have the bio-wheels partly plug the output with a peice of tubing that fits inside the elbo peice this will keep your bio-wheels spinning more than 2 days.

Also drill a hole in the intake tube below where your water level ever gets so when the impeller gets gravel in it and cuts through your outer casing your whole tank won't drain on the floor.

I have had bad luck with these filters but love the water polishing feature, and these could be bought just for this. I accually bought a new one to use it on diffrent tanks for this feature alone. Florite makes quite a mess.

Whiskey

I also had one for a very short time. At first it seemed pretty decent but quickly left me lacking...so I built my own fitration system. I wasnt sure if a bad one made it past the Quality Control guys or if I just didnt have any good luck. If I were going to use a canister filter again...I wouldnt use that particular canister filter...but that doesnt neccassarilly make it un-useable.

[Hobbs]

thanks for the advise, but let me ask you guys this,
does any of you use a canister and not a refugium/sump?
and if answer is refugium/sump wouldn't it be better for me just to go straight for a refugium and not order a canister?

Yes and No. Let me explain...my answer a bit. You still need something to remove all of the trash (big particles) from your water before it gets to the refugium so a refugium only in my opinion is not a good answer. You can run a sump that has a refugium in it but I dont like this arrangement either! The reason is that in a sump you usually pump water through it at a very high rate. This will do an excellent job of filtering your water. Unfortunately with water flow that high going through the refugium section you will not have enough "contact time" with the macro-algae to really do a good job of nutrient up take. I would either go with a sump and a seperate refugium or a canister filter and a refugium. For many this takes up more room than they can afford. Fortunately for me I have the room. I am using a DIY filter to remove particulate matter from the water and to run carbon and resins as required and then let my 140 gallon refugium with mangroves and macro-algae to all the real work for me. In all fairness I have a very light bio-load fish wise and feed vary sparingly. I really like all of the advantages that a refugium adds to my system. My water quality is excellent (I dont use a skimmer - but I dont really recommend this unless you really got your ducks in a row on this!), it provides a ton of pods, brine shrimp and feeding algae to my critters. Keeps the water cystal clear and it looks as cool as the display I have it hooked up to.

I personally (unless you have long arms and deep pockets) would get the canister filter and later as time, room and funds permit, pipe in a refugium. You can use the canister filter as the primary means of filtration at first. In the meantime you can do lots of reading, research, and check out lots of other tanks and see what fits your needs best and then go from there. You can then add a refugium later if thats what you feel is best and still use the canister filter for removing particulate matter from the tank and running carbon and resins if you need to use them.

This is the hardest part of getting into this hobby! There are lots of ways to have a killer looking tank and very few sure fire ways to have a bad one. Everyone will have an opion on what works best. This makes choosing equipment a real tough job.

HTH's

[Hobbs]

thx for the advise,
I originally was going with a canister through research and the forum was confusing me, thanks guys for getting me back on my feet

[SaltyDawg]

I run a Magnum 350 and CPR bacpak skimmer and that is the only Mechanical filtration that I have. I have a 4 inch sand bed and about 40lbs of LR to help with the bio-filtration. My water quality is fine withe Ammonia at 0, Nitrites at 0, PH 8.4 and my Nitrates are usually around 20ppm which can be expected with a cannister filter.

The Magnum 350 has done me will so far, but if you do have the bio-wheel I would advise against using it because it is an major Nitrate factory. Bad enough that the carbon will cause the Nitrates, the bio-wheel will cause 10 times more.
Wayne

[cich1]

i have no opinion on whether you should use a cannister or not but i will say you can get alot easier to use filter than the magnum 350, i have 2 of them and i will say i like the micron filter for water polishing but they are a real pain to connect and disconnect and to clean, i have 4 Filstar xp3s and i can disconnect all 4 of them in less time than it takes to fool with a magnum and the filstars cost about the same money and hold alot more media

[fragged]

Hey All, let me add my two cents...I have a refugium and a "Magiver-ized" Penguin bio-wheel filter set-up. The way I have it set-up is that the main tank drains (via overflow) to my refugium, my refugium drains to my penguin, which is in my sump. The only reason I use the penguin is for the carbon and/or other filter slots set-up in the housing of the filter. I know, it sounds pretty sad, but it works and has for over a year! I get the benefit of macroalgae and the benefits of filtration from the penguin. I also skim and kalk, so everything is happy. Just remember to cover all your filtration bases and you should be fine.