Coral Toxicity (Beginners be sure to read)

[jman785]

Welcome beginner coral enthusiasts!

This thread was created, because I had been thinking of the safety of others for once, instead of myself :lol:

I have a couple of pointers to point out, that might save your life or keep you from becoming ill when your playing with your reef.

You might think, how is my life endangered when I play with my tank? There are a lot of ways to die or be injured from playing with tanks, electrocution, cut fingers instead of cutting corals, but being poisoned? Is this possible with the reef? If your asking that question in your head, your dang skippy. Because Zoanthids, contain one of the worlds most deadliest toxins called, Palytoxin.

1. When handling Zoanthids (Zoo's, Zoanthus, Zoanthidae, etc.), handle them as few times as you can when fragging them, as they will shed slime in defense of you handling them and cutting at them.

2. ALWAYS wear gloves, NO MATTER WHO DOESN'T WEAR THEM, you remember to ALWAYS wear them because a lot of people are injured and get sick from not wearing them. Cuts on your hand make you even more vulnerable to being exposed to the toxin.

3. Wash your hands when your finished, even if you wore gloves.

4. Keep kids and pets away while your fragging, and never let them handle corals.

5. Sometimes small Nudibranchs (sea slugs) are on Zoanthids. Do not attempt to remove them by hand, because you'll most likely end up being exposed to the toxin. From reports across the web, they are claiming that the Nudibranchs toxins are Palytoxin, that it gets from the Zoanthids...except that its MUCH more concentrated. So refrain from mushing them on the glass to kill them, and just wear gloves, and use a pair of pliers to remove them.

Children particularly would be at risk to this toxin, so please beware, its not just harming pets, its harming humans as well.

[Condiman]

Excellent thread Jared

[jman785]

Why thank you Brad :)

[MikeS]

Yes...good safty tips....

I always wear gloves when working in the tank...there are bacterial infections you can get from the water alone...and a cut from LR can get pretty badly infected (I learned that one the hard way). Not to mention the ever pleasent bristle worm stings...

Mike

[cich1]

mental note, buy gloves first than corals :wink:

[jman785]

Yes, good mental note. Mike has pointed out some good things to know too...its not just when handling Zoanthid's. Liverock can give some nasty infected cuts, as I've experienced as well.

[pilotrob]

ok so ive heard this before but do all zoanthids contain this toxin or is it just a certian group? ive seen countless people handle them bare-handed without so much as getting a skin rash. when starting out, you would think either of the LFSs i visit would say woah hang on there buddy thats the worlds deadliest animal. but instead i heard yeah they grow great, good starting coral, have fun. is there any way to tell which do or which dont? and can you receive the toxin by just touching it? because if thats the case im dead and so is everyone at the store :)

i would love to see more in depth info on this subject because if it is that serious its the first thing we should be telling people new to corals.

also does anyone have any experiences they could share?

[jman785]

I have plenty...I've shared them...Wear Gloves.

All Zoanthids carry Palytoxin, some carry more than others...

It has nothing to do with getting a skin rash. Small cuts or incisions on your hand, can mean the worst.

If you smush one of nudibranchs that feed on your Zoanthid polyps, you could face a lot of problems, as I've read where one person did this, and get VERY sick from just mushing it on the glass.

Here is a link to RC, where a person by the name of Kevin's dog was killed...

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=158663

This quote was taken from TRI, but was quoted from The Reef Aquarium 2.

A quote from The Reef Aquarium 2
The Hawaiian zoanthid,Palythoa toxica contains an especially toxic chemical [most likely palytoxin] within its gastric cavity.Bowers and Walsh reported that a student collector had to be hospitalized for several days after accidentally touching a colony to an open wond on his hand.
The early Hawaiians were aware of the toxic nature of this zoanthid as they used to dip their spear points in them to make wonds made by them fatal.

[jman785]

Here is another link that can explain it better.

The so called "moss" they are referring to, is Zoanthids.

http://www.chem.orst.edu/ch331-7t/ch331/CH331-F99/motds/MOTD115.htm

[jman785]

A quote from the website above.

The crude ethanol extracts of the Palythoa toxica proved to be so toxic that an accurate LD50 was difficult to determine. More recently, the toxicity has been determined to be 50-100ng/kg i.p. in mice. The compound is an intense vasoconstrictor; in dogs, it causes death within 5 min at .06ug/kg. By extrapolation, a toxic dose in a human (obviously not determined) would be about 4 micrograms!!!. It is the most toxic organic substance known.

So evidently, Kevin Kramers dog that was killed, didn't get a big dose, it was probably a diluted dose due to being in a tub of water.

[jman785]

Like I previously said, some bad stuff, be careful and wear gloves...if you don't, it could mean your life...

I can see all of the old men that 'know everything' laughing their socks off and they are going to be the first ones that end up with a nasty infection, or a hand amputated or having a neurotoxin rushing through their veins.

[MikeS]

I've gotten nasty stings from corals both in my tank and scuba diving, and also a pretty bad infection from a cut caused by LR....gloves are prudent....

On the toxicity of Zoo's.....yes they do have an extremely potant toxin, and should always be handled with care...but I wonder why with all the reefkeepers out there nobody has gotten killed doing it? (to my knowledge anyway). I have heard of deaths related to fish tanks in the form of major blood poisioning from severe bacterial infections, but never one from toxic corals. Perhaps this is a case of it just has not happened YET..... :shock:

Bottom line.....be carefull when handling thigs from your tank, and keep the pets and kids away...

Mike

[yjkdo12]

Wow. Thanks for the warning. Don't think I would have thought of that! I'm definitly going to go out and buy some gloves first!

[jman785]

yjkdo12,


Good idea. :)

[upstoday]

Wow never even thought about any of this, good info

[nbaker]

Good topic Jman785.

On a another note I've always used gloves, mainly for fear of having something on my hands or arms that might harm the tank in somesorta way. A friend of mine had a lady clean his house once a week, all of a sudden in about three days he lost two 4 year old niger triggers, a 5 year old Clown, and several other things. He had her feed some of his fish like she had done several times before. Come to find out it was the windex residue, and other cleaning supplys used, left on her hands that made it in the water (I guess she had rinsed her finger tips in the tank durring the process). He had to strip the tank down and start all over, everything died with in a few weeks.

[jman785]

That's another good point, just remember to wear gloves, and be safe please reef heads ;)

Other dangerous things

Cone Snails http://grimwade.biochem.unimelb.edu.au/cone/index1.html
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-07/rs/index.htm
http://www.kingsnake.com/toxinology/conotoxins.html


Toxic Nudibranchs http://www.easttnreefclub.com/articles.html

Mycobacterium Marinum
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-07/sp/feature/index.htm

WEAR THOSE GLOVES!!!

[Angelscrx]

The piture of the finger swelling and the surgery are enough to make me go out and buy gloves. Thanks

[creepingdeath086]

wow, thats crazy, i always kinda wondered about touching corals like that...but also a question, the powder inside the latex gloves...wiill that hurt the tank in anyway???

You can buy non-powdered gloves. They are harder to get on and off though. Many hospitals are switching to non-powdered gloves because some workers are allergic to the powder.

[jman785]

Latex gloves aren't necessary though. Any kind of gloves will work. Such as yellow kitchen gloves as well. :) As long as they are only used on the reef and not for washing dishes and stuff too hehe :)

[Tattfish]

interesting point , I had no idea that zoos were toxic . thanks for the heads up.

[dillinger]

score, i have some nice aquarium gloves from when i built a glove box

[Doctor_Reef]

Good thread Jared..... Now those of us who have been doing this for some time take these things for granted... But when beginning this adventure we needed this kind of information.... Thanks for thinking about others here.... Good Job!!! :)

[EXVISOR]

I read what all of you pointed out and wearing gloves does make sence to me but I have to ask you this and keep in mind i'm new to this all and still learning and i'm not trying to be a smarty in any way but I can't help but wonder whats the difference from sticking my hands in the tank with no gloves or protection vs me spending the day at the beach in the same water with nothing on but shorts and my whole body coming in contact with the water
Again just asking as I am new to all this and im still learning so any info given would be helpful as I don't want to learn the hard way but I also need things to make sence to me as well

[gman0526]

Don't worry you're asking a very valid question. I'm no expert but I would assume that the mere volume of water in the ocean itself makes toxins almost untraceable in a beach. Now you might very well get a nasty infection if you by any chance cut yourself with a reef rock. I guess that the whole point of the argument is that we're better safe than sorry. Also in the very first post on this page nbaker, makes a very valid point it's not just what may happen to us but what we may introduce to our tanks via our skin. I've seen in more than one ocassion a whole tank being wiped because the hobbist forgot they put on some lotion. HTH

[FishinInTheDark]

Most of the chemicals that hurt us in our tanks are very diluted in the ocean. You wouldn't have an issue with zoo juice while playing in the waves, but manipulating/fragging corals and rocks in the aquarium is another story. Some of us are more sensitive to the stinging animals than others: I have to wear a wetsuit to snorkel while my husband can't even feel the tiny jellyfish that are like bee stings to me.

[marshalrckman]

i guess i shouldnt have eaten my zoo fra..............

[bigfoot]

LOL

[EXVISOR]

Well Ever since I heard about this I have been a little more careful and make sure I wash up good when im done but I still find my self time to time needed to do something in the tank and I just never remember to wear gloves ,more so because i've been doing it for years and I guess its hard to get into the habbit of putting them on as the minute I see something I need to fix or etc I just reach in and do it

[jman785]

EXVISOR,

Glad to hear your trying to change your old habits :)

The reasons I use them, are not just for the zoo's but for the other nasty infections and stuff you can receive just from liverock cuts, etc.

[bigfoot]

yes people wear gloves! today i had a man with a big chunk of his thigh missing he was from fiji he used to dive for LR collection and he was using what sounded like a hatchet to break up the rock and it sliced open his leg and was just used to break a large rock with a bunh of zoos on it and he said he got real sick from the toxins and then got a secondary infection from the sea water and they had to cut out a big portion of the meat (softball size) he last dove for coral 5 years ago and has had many cuts that got infected so i thanked him for the work he did collecting LR and what he helped do for our hobby i guess i never really took into account the work that goes into getting our LR from the ocean to our tanks i thought that the price was outrageous he said he was paid on average of 5 cents a lb for what he collected so to make any money thats alot of rock to collect he would average 1000 lbs a day diving without equipment thats alot of work for 50 bucks.....i guess the cost is worth it though because somebody kept taking a beating for us over here for some LR but after seeing his scars..........imgoing to wear gloves at all times in my tanks

[liljason951]

thanks alot jared

[jman785]

No prob :)

[VidaDeMar]

Hey, i got a question, this toxins acomulate in our body?, if we are alive we are clean?, Thanks for writhe all this, i wear plastic gloves, sometimes, but LR always break them, i need use 2 and in 5 moves i need get my hands out of the tank, wich gloves are more resistant (Harder?)?, see ya.

[jman785]

It takes very little of this toxin to make you ill. So it doesn't build up in your system.

I'd get some heavy duty gloves with sleeves that go up to your elbow.

[VidaDeMar]

thanks

[Gilraen Took]

So the stuff is toxic to people, and I'm sure if a zoo died it would be nasty too, but are they dangerous to fish and inverts? I was planning on having a lot of zoos in my tank when I set it up, but would definately reconsider if there is a chance they'll kill my fish>_>

[MikeS]

I haven't heard of any cases of zoo's wiping out tanks...the toxin is in their tissue, not secreted or delivered in a sting, and the polyp must be crushed, cut, ect to release said toxin. Minimal danger to the fish, really...

Mikes

[m1k3]

That is extremely sobering information, and some advice I will be taking......thank you young sir!

[jasno999]

Thank goodness somebody else is saying this. I have said this very same sort of thing on other boards for a long time now. You would not believe the amount of people out there that just don't have a clue about this. What is even worse is the amount of people that would respond to my posts and tell me I was crazy or exaggerating the truth.

Some people just never get it until it is too late. I told them stories I have read and heard and showed them the links but many insist that they have handled zoos before with no gloves and nothing happened so they will continue to handle them that way... I don't know what to say to that. All we can do is put the information out there and warn people about the dangerous. Otherwise their health is in their own hands....

Great post.

[nightwatcher13]

Perfect...a discussion already talking about gloves and I have a question pertaining to gloves. Does anyone know where to purchase rubber gloves that come above the elbow, preferably to the armpit? The longer the better!!! I really hate getting my whole arm wet when reaching in my tank.

[Mantisfreak]

http://www.marinedepot.com/md_searchitem.asp

Then type in gloves

[nightwatcher13]

You're my savior!!!

[Mako8500]

Glad i dont like slugs LOL
:))) i finaly got a tank yeee haaaa 90 with side towerover floww and stand bran new 400 beans better then what i seen on ebay and lets not say how long I been trying to bid on > about 1000 now i need filters and heads oh and heater its cold! well my daughters yellin <BBS>

[AlTheFishGuy]

Just Take a look at my signature !!! strike that wrong forum !!

[Gimis66]

Thanks for the Great advice! Sharing is Caring, LOL