Skimmers and Carbon during breakin

[MikeS]

Hi all

This subject has come up in several posts, I thought I'd get some discussion going about it in the Advanced forum here, to see how you all feel about it...

Should skimmers and/or carbon be used in the initial breakin cycle of a new tank? My opinion is no....

Mike

[Zack]

Hey
great idea. I am with you mike, I would not either. I personally ama skimmerless guy and use means of refugiums. both xenia and claurpa to help with nutrent export.

I ususally have them running without the claurpa/xenia during the cycle then as the algaes start to come i place them in.

As for you skimmer crazy people, when do you start to turn it on full blast?

[acropora]

I personally like to use a Protein skimmer from day one.During the first stages of a new set up with L.R., there is alot of detritus and die off from the L.R. A protein skimmer will reduce excess nutrients in the water which promote nuisance algae. A refugium is a great addition at any time. I also like to use phosban,especially in a new set up.The early days of a new set up are critical to long term success.I do not add any sand for a few months,since so much detritus is present at the onset.I also do not add any fish which will add to the bio load until the tank is mature.

[Condiman]

I also agree with ya I know for about the first year of my tanks life I was using carbon but that was before I had a computer. I think I have ran carbon free for about 2 years and no problems. If I were to start over again I would only use a good quality skimmer

[SaltyDawg]

I did not use a skimmer until my tank was 4 months old. I have recently put LS into my tank and have taken my carbon out of my Magnum, I am using the polishing filter. I have noticed my Nitrates coming down over the last couple of days. Not sure if it's the LS or taking the carbon out. I feel you should use carbon and a skimmer early on in a tank set up even if you are using LS and LR. I personally think it will help with the cycle, by giving a spot for the Nitrates to multiply and eat up the Nitrites, which we all know is deadly to fish.
Wayne

[Charles Poole]

I think that with balance and stability in mind, setting things up and running them as normal, is the way to start a tank. Letting everything balance out together. This should reduce the changes in water chemistry that will follow any new filtration addition or change.

I say YES, run them from the very start... :)

[MikeS]

The more I think about it, I'm going to have to qualify my "No" and change it to a "Depends" :D

I think using a skimmer on a new tank that is being cycled with live rock is probably not a bad idea, to try to preserve as much life on the rock as you can. I can see using a skimmer/carbon then.

For a bare tank (no live rock) or an FO tank, I'd still go with no.

Mike

[Charles Poole]

Why do you still say no with a bare or empty tank?

If there is no place for the bacteria to colonize, then you would need even greater waste removal capabilities. Since nature can't process these nutrients efficiently without proper surface area available.

So without LS or LR, you would most likely want to filter to the extreme. Unless another source for nitrification and denitrification has been employed.

[MikeS]

When I say "bare" I mean a new tank with no livestock, including LR.

I suppose my "no skimmer" conviction is a leftover from my FO days. Here is how I'd set up new tanks....bear in mind these were FO tanks with CC substrate, rubble rock and coral skeleton decorations. We had not even heard of live rock out here at this time. I'd have the substrate and decorations in place, the tank full of water. I'd then take some CC and water from another one of my tanks (at my peak I usually had between 3-5 marine tanks going at any given time) and add it to the new tank. I'd then introduce some nutrients, usually in the form of frozen or flake food. I'd bring the tank up to temperature and had my powerheads running. I'd then let the tank do its thing. On these tanks I used hang on filters and/or canisters. I had these running also, only eventually without carbon.

My earliest skimmers where the old airpump style counter current skimmers. I found that the tanks I used skimmers on during the breakin cycle took much longer to fully cycle, and that the bacteria numbers seemed to be "weak"..ie I saw much larger ammonia spikes when initially adding livestock. I think that even those old counter current skimmers were efficient enough to take enough nutrients out of the water column that the bacteria just didn't have an ample amount to get good numbers.

I noticed the same thing ( although not nearly as pronounced ) when I used carbon in the hang on or canister filter. With carbon, the tank cycled reletively quickly compared to the tanks with skimmers, (but not as quickly as tanks with no carbon and no skimmer). When I changed the carbon at the end of the cycle, I noticed larger ammonia spikes when adding new livestock than in the tanks without carbon and/or skimmer in break-in.

I know now with live rock it's a new ballgame...I've changed my attitude a litte bit on skimmers/carbon during break-in. If asked today, I'd say if the tank is "bare"- ie no livestock, which is how many set up theirs still I think, I'll still go with the no skimmer recommendation. Carbon is different, because ovbiously it provides a media for bacteria growth within the aquarium system, where a skimmer simply removes the nutrients away from the tank altogether. I'd still go with a no carbon recommendation in a "bare" tank. However if the tank is being cycled with live rock, I can definately see the advantages of skimmer/carbon use, in order to help preserve life on the LR.

Chuck, I completely see your point on stability and balance, it makes sense, but then again I still can't help thinking that removing too many nutrients from a newly cycling tank via skimmers and/or carbon is not good, and counterproductive to aiding in stability. New tanks are unstable anyway, I think the no skimmer/no carbon method (unless you have LR to protect) helps build a stronger biological filter up front.

I think that this is a topic that has no right or wrong answer. Both methods have advantages and disadvatages IMO, and neither way is liable to jeprodize your tank IMO. I'd say it definatley falls into one of the many "grey" areas of reefkeeping. That's what I love about this hobby, there are so many different angles to approach it from. I might think strongly about a subject, but I'm always willing to see the other side...that's the only way I think I'll become a better reefkeeper, is by entertaining all reasonable possibilities.... :D

Mike

[Charles Poole]

A matter of patience versus practicality.

It is the large swings that we seek to reduce the most in this hobby. So by limiting the amount of every nutrient being processed in a sytem, right from the start, makes good sense to me.

But, I am also not into cycling a tank with any livestock in it. Except LR and LS hitchhikers.... :)

[MikeS]

A matter of patience versus practicality.

It is the large swings that we seek to reduce the most in this hobby. So by limiting the amount of every nutrient being processed in a sytem, right from the start, makes good sense to me.



That does make sense. :-D

Old habits die hard....once I find something that works for me, it can be hard to give up.

I'll offer this too....I have spoken with others that have started their tanks with really nice skimmers working, and their tanks simply would not cycle, the skimmer was removing the waste too quickly.

Your point on control from the start is a very good one, however. I'd imagine there is a happy medium in there somewhere, in too little vs. too much.... :-D

Mike

[icereefer]

I've ran my skimmer since day one to and used a Aquaclear with a foam block to keep my water clear, and at first I to ran carbon but haven't for month's and my tank was doing good till I set up my refugium,but thats' another story.

[Charles Poole]

I also use uncured Live Rock straight of the plane for my initial setup. This keeps a pretty steady level of waste in the tank. I have not had a problem with cycling any tank of mine yet. Saltwater or Freshwater, so I am not quite sure what the deal is with that.


I'd imagine there is a happy medium in there somewhere, in too little vs. too much....


I hope so... :)

[nbaker]

I have a question for you fellas and gals a long this subject. I have a tank that's only a few months old, okay about 3. I've used LR to cycle my tank which took about six weeks to complete, I had two cycles. The whole time I used a skimmer, and pulled just a small amount of sludge from it each week. I never used carbon, I was told by the source that set me up it was not a good mix for a while. I notice that my last chem test showed a little ammonia. Okay now that your all caught up... I added some carbon to my HOB wisker 40 filter is this a good way to bring ammonia down slightly?