Setting up this new tank

[Gametrade]

ok....i got a brand new tank at a VERY good deal! anywho 225 G, and i want to run a nice saltwater reef tank. Simple first questions. I want something that requires minimal effort. I have heard from a few people that if you go over board on filters and all that, you wont need to fuss with it that much. Is this true and if so what kinda filtration would be recommended for this size tank? :-D

[Zack]

Hey
Wow, thats a good size to start with! More room for error is key to start with. As for filtrtion thats depnds on the budget ;) The minamal you should really get a sump where you get start a refugium and run a protien skimmer.

Tells us more about the tank, is it drilled, did it come with anything?

[Condiman]

Zack is right you should get a sump but I would thing the most important part of your filtration should be your protine skimmer. As for your sump I have seen many people use large rubbermaid containers that are sectioned off.

[Gametrade]

Well my friends dad runs a few restuarants. He was goiing to use it for one of the resturants but never did. So it is never used still has the anti scratch stickers on it and cost me $100. But it is just the tank, nothing drilled, has 2 big holes in the top for access. So that is about it.......that is all i got. :roll:

[Condiman]

Dang you a luck man.

[Gametrade]

Yah......now all i have to do is learn about this whole ordeal before i get too far into it and everything dies :P So learn me some stuff if you dont mind :) :D

[Condiman]

With a tank that size you will need a very solid stand and flooring in your home that will support that much weight. Because once it is fully stocked it can weigh well over 2000lbs.

[Gametrade]

yah i understand that.....im getting a house within the next year, and plan to build the tank into one of the walls. So i know about the whole weight thing. Just want to know about the filtration and stuff like that.....i want a filtration setup with MINIMAL effort. I heard if you go overboard on the filtration, you dont need to spend as much time on the tank. :?

[Condiman]

When you build it into the wall you could design a way to put a sump underneith and keep all of your heaters and things in there. But the main thing like I said is a Skimmer.

[Gametrade]

So go overboard on a protein skimmer as opposed to like wet/dry filters or whatever? And use a Trickle system or wet/dry or what is recommended for what i want?

[Zack]

Hey
The wetdrys are used more for a fish only system not for a reef. What do you plan on, just fish or a reef tank? You will want to get like a 75-100 gallon tank underneath which you can section off for skimmer sump and refugium. Once we get some more ideas i will work to draw something up :)
Zack

[Gametrade]

ok....well i want to run a reef tank, and from what was said so far, it sounds like i just need a oversized protein skimmer, then regular filtration through a non wet/dry system and um...i dont know what else
well to tell you the truth what i REALLY wanted to do is this:
start off simple reef i guess with clown fish or some tangs as i am a beginner, then gradually move up until i can get what i really want which is some kinda of shark that kinda resembles a true ocean shark....like with the teeth and all.....like a miniture great white/white/black tipped shark, but i dont think those exist...so ill probably stick with the regualr reef tank.

[Gametrade]

So i guess what im asking is:
1. Does a small shark exist that looks like a white/black tip reef shark?
2. Shold i go overboard on just the protein skimmer, or anthing else so i dont have to spend alot of time on the tank?
3. What type of filtration should i get?
4. Um any other info that you think would help :D

[MikeS]

good idea to skip the shark idea. Unfortunately, many of them find their way into LFS's as eggs or juveniles. Even the smallest sharks found in the aquarium trade reach 3+ feet in length, and usually have very specific diet requirements. Realistically, these animals require a tank in the range of thousands of gallons to survive long term. Best to leave them in the ocean or go enjoy seeing them in a public aquarium.

As for the skimmer, I always recommend getting the best one you can realistically afford. Keep in mind that having a good skimmer won't really cut down on general tank maintenance, or buy you more time between water changes, because water changes do a lot more for your tank than just remove pollutants (ie replace trace elements, help restore good ionic balances, ect.....)

Mike

[Gametrade]

Yah....i kinda gave up on the shark idea as i started reading articles from websites selling them. But anyways, i talked to my friend last night about his reef tank and i loved his setup. He has a 125G with a ton of live rock. He has had it for about 4-5 years now i believe, and he said he hasn't had to check the ph, nitrate, etc levels since about the first month of owning it. Beyond that, he sayes he hasnt had the time, but he sayes he only changes 1/4 the tank water once every 3 months, and he sayes his tank is looking AMAZING. And last time i saw it about 4-5 months ago it was beautiful!!! He has no protein skimmer either.

[MikeS]

He has had it for about 4-5 years now i believe, and he said he hasn't had to check the ph, nitrate, etc levels since about the first month of owning it. Beyond that, he sayes he hasnt had the time, but he sayes he only changes 1/4 the tank water once every 3 months, and he sayes his tank is looking AMAZING. And last time i saw it about 4-5 months ago it was beautiful!!! He has no protein skimmer either.

In my honest and humble opinion, your friend is playing a dangerous game with his reef tank. Regular testing of your water is your first line of defense in detecting a potential problem in your tank. I'm as guilty as the next guy about not testing my water as often as I probably should, but I make an effort to keep on top of it as well as I can.

As for the water changes, as stated above, they do a lot more for your tank than just serve as a means of nutrient export. Trace elements, ionic balance, ect are all helped by regular water changes. I understand your desire for a "low maintenance" tank, I have that desire as well. I have a 3 year old son, and a job that keeps me pretty busy, so finding enough time to meet my tank's basic maintenance requirements can be a bit of a challange. I currently manage to find time to do a 25% water change every 4-5 weeks. IMO, this schedule is on the border of being minimal, I wish I had time to do a 10% change every 2 weeks.

I tried the "no water change" with a FO tank many years ago. I felt that I had adequate skimming, water movement, and carbon filtration to get away with freshwater topoffs and monthy salinity adjustments. Well, this worked just fine for about a year, the tank looked fine, water checked out ok for pollutants, the fish were all fine, ect. Well, after a year of doing this, I woke up one morning, and apparently overnight WHAMO the tank had "crashed"! I had 2-3 dead fish, and the worst cyano outbreak I have ever seen. This cyano was jet black in color, and within 72 hours it covered every inch of my substrate, decorations, glass and equipment! Ammonia was darn near off the chart. I started sucking the stuff out and doing water changes. It didn't work. Even resorted to a 75% water change, still no luck, stuf was back strong in 48 hours. I eventually had to strip the tank bare, throw out the substrate and decorations, and sanitize all the equipment. In this time, I lost all but 2 of the fish I had in there. I learned a hard and expensive lesson that day, and I'm sure to this day, it was a direct result of no water changes. My best guess as to what happened is that my water was so depleated in certain areas and so heavy in others due to no water changes that my bacteria just died, or something like that. All I know is that never happened in any of my tanks I regularly changed the water in before, or since.

hope this story "inspires" you.... :-D

Mike

[Gametrade]

thank you for taking the time to explain all that. I dont know how his system works so well together, but some things maybe are the filters. Under his 125G tank is a sump that is almost the same size....prob 100G....so maybe that is why he doesnt have to change the water so much?

[MikeS]

No problem! If I can save you some greif and some $$$, it's worth it!

Obviously, a larger amount of water will give you a little more breathing room in areas like ionic balance, nutrient buildup, ect. However, alot of it is a function of bioload (stocking) of the tank. Corals and other living organisims use the trace elements, process nutients,ect,.... "gallons of water" do not. So a heavlily stocked large tank should experience nutrient buildup and trace depletion just as quickly as a smaller tank with a similar livestock/gallon ratio, all other things being equal.

so maybe that is why he doesnt have to change the water so much?

OK, If this guy isn't testing his water, then how does he know he doesn't have to change the water as often? Looks can be decieving....my FO "looked" fine the night before it crashed....then it didn't "look" so good after that.... :lol:

Mike

[Gametrade]

yah i hear what you are sayin.....just weird i guess his system has been up and running for about 5 years and not gone down once. I mean his system looks nice.....everyting is bright and extremely colorful. Also does it have anything to do with all that live rock her has.....i mean his reef setup is filled with it.

[MikeS]

well, everybodys' tank is unique, maybe a 25% change every 3 months is meeting his needs, but I'd guess minimaly at best. I'd say he's pushing the envelope there a bit, and there is a strong possibility that his maintenance practices will come back to haunt him eventually...

What troubles me the most is that he isn't testing the water to be sure his tank's needs are being met. If you are changing the water more frequently, you can probably get away with less frequent tests, but IMO no testing + infrequent water changes = eventual disaster.

Look at this way- in order for our tanks to be successful, we need to duplicate the natural reef environment as closely as we can. While this is an impossible task, there is still a lot we can do to get closer. The tides and currents bring a constant supply of pure ocean water to a reef, while removing the exisiting water. We try to duplicate this with.....water changes!

I would have to say your friend's success with his tank given a lack of testing and infrequent water changes is atypical....maybe he's just a really lucky person? Given enough time, that method will fail, IMO....

Mike

[Charles Poole]

Success is often only in the eye of the beholder. If you have never seen what these sharks look like in the wild at the same age, as well as there normal activities. Then it may appear that someone is successful at keeping the animal alive.

There is a big difference in surviving an thriving though. I have had people who have been in the reef hobby for over 10 years, ( with thoughts of great success in their heads ) come over to my house to see my tanks, and are amazed at the differences. I have given corals to people who could not keep them alive for a month, while this coral grows unchecked in my tanks. Why, it is my level of attention to the animals needs, not my own.

I check for everything I dose, while most people dose because the label gives directions on how to dose, and not a reason for needing it or not.
I am not tooting my own horn, just trying to let you know that a reef tank needs to be kept in optimal conditions for proper health and growth.

As I mentioned earlier, surviving is way different than thriving... :)

[Gametrade]

Ok, so going back to my original question. What type of system should i get to keep my effort level at a minimum? and i guess also....can you give me an example of a minimal schedule i would need to keep.....like for example 25% water change once per 1-2 months or whatever :) :-D

[MikeS]

Well, your water change schedule will depend mostly on how heavily stocked your tank is compared to its size. Larger tank + less heavily stocked = a little more allowable time between water changes. Personally, I'd avoid going longer than about 4-5 weeks between 20-25% changes, just to be safe. Of course if your tank is more heavily stocked, you may have to increase the frequency of water changes. It all depends on your individual tank. A good way to figure out how often you are going to need water changes is....yep..you guessed it....testing! :-D

Mike

[Charles Poole]

I have to go with Mike on this one. Water quality is the keep to keeping these tanks healthy. Although we all should strive to get them to function as close to nature as possible, this isn't really possible yet. So the next best solution is testing and water changing...

[Gametrade]

how will having more or less live rock in the tank affect the water changing? also how abou the quality or growth on the rock matter?

[Charles Poole]

Without enough LR you may not have adequate biological filtering capacity to process Nitrogenous wastes fast enough.

To much LR will only cause problems if it starts to severely restrict water flow in the tank. This is rarely encountered without simply filling the tank with LR and no animals... :)

Shoot for 1.5 to 2 lbs. per gallon and you should be just fine.

[Gametrade]

wow.....well i better start saving some $$$$$$$$$$. what is a good price for decent live rock...like $5/lb x 225G x 1.75lb = ~$2000
i wonder if banks have fish tank loans :P Anyway....so it doesnt matter on the quality of live rock im guessing? Cause this one site was saying there live rock is the best cause it has more deep purple . Then there was another shop that said it's rock was superior because of all the noticable vegetation on the rock, there are ones that are "deep rock"...blah blah blah....so what is the real deal?

[Paidbychrist0825]

these are all live rocks, they are just different kinds. some will have more corraline alghae( teh deep purple) some will have more noticable plants, some will have more bacteria( not noticable, but VERY important) i personally plan to go through liverocks.com as they have a special on orders over 80 #'s:)

[Paidbychrist0825]

hey my HTml didnt work
now i have to go take it out.
:(

[Charles Poole]

What HTML Tom? Maybe I can help... :)

[Condiman]

Maybe instead of filling the tank with all LR you could get some base rock to save on $$$$. Base Rock is basically rock that has nothing on it. I picked up mine for $2 lb.

[Charles Poole]

Excellent point Condiman... :)

Since the base rock often ends up pretty plain looking anyways, why not save the trouble of using expensive live rock to make the base....

[Paidbychrist0825]

i took it out of the post cause it was showing the script,and it looked sloppy

[Charles Poole]

Tom, I like it... A lot.... We need to chat via AIM real soon... :)

[MikeS]

you can also make your own artificial live rock, using crushed coral, aragonite sand, and low alkalinity cement.....many reefkeeper have doe this. I believe there is a recipie somewhere here on the forum, also GARF has a recipie. It's pretty neat, you can make the rocks any shape or size you desire, with shelves, caves, ect...and then you just "seed" it by adding some real live rock to the tank....it'll save you some $$$....

Mike

[hawk-eye]

No one has mentioned lighting as of yet , sure testing equipment is important so is filtration , what about substrate ????? i am just a beginner here and by far not an expert , but i think just because he got the tank , for $100 now he needs to spend alot of money not only on LR but also on substrate filtration and lighting testing equipment . What i have read so far i would have to agree , water changes water changes water changes must be adhered to i am as i write this fighting a red algae problem my fish are surviving , but i am having a problem with this algae , and i think it is caused by water problems my clean up crew cleaned up alright they stripped my live rock hahahahaha. Oh well hahaha i am right now trying to keep this algea at bay with water changes so the nutrients come back in the water now i am changing the water weekly in hopes i don't lose everything . Right now i have well over 2000.00 invested in my tank and i may lose well over half of that cause i don't think i did enough water changes all my tests are all basically fine low in the PH 8.1 My tank is only a 67 gallon tank and i have this much invested so now you have a tank that is three times the size just think before you do anything and nothing will replace hard work and a regiment .

[Charles Poole]

Hawk-eye,

The red algae you are fighting is likely the slime algae called Cyanobacteria.

I have done many personal studies on this algae, and setup a test tank to help show my customers the easiest cure for this algae. Increased current flow in the areas the algae is growing.

I have showed the employees at my store that although the water may test low or 0 for Phosphates, this is the #1 cause of this algae. The algae is using up the phosphates so rapidly, that they are not allowed to escape into the water column. You can test this yourself by using a syringe to suck up water from beneath the algae mats. This water is usually heavy in Phosphates, and will turn the test kit a dark blue ( if that is the titration color, which it often is with most test kits).

Over feeding can aggrivate the issue, and reduced feeding can help aide in the control of this algae. #1 issue is to increase either the flow in the affected areas, or increase the total flow in the tank.

I can give you more information and pictures of these tests if you like. But I am working on an article for the articles section which will be indepth on problems and solutions with most commonly experienced algae problems...

HTH