DIY Liverock (The best looking liverock you'll ever see)

[jman785]

Well I've discovered, the absolute best DIY Recipe for LR...use the normal method of making liverock and use salt to make porous holes...read on to find out the whole process :wink:

Mix 6 parts Carib Sea(tm) aragonite sand with 1 part Portland #3 cement. I also add some plastic saw dust to the mixture for a texture. I also have found out that mixing in a little rock salt and then sprinkling some on the outer surface tends to make a nice porous rock for the finished product, try it for yourself, once the rock salt melts, the rock is left with a hole and you have a nice texture. If you have a pool supply shop near you, then you can buy salt pellets for Salt Generators which is a form of chlorinator. These pellets come in a range of sizes, but will definently be just as good as rock salt if not better. My father owns a pool store, so I have the salt pellets readily available for my use. So anyway take a box, preferrably a stryofoam box that you've received a shipment of fish in, fill with aragonite sand, the same that you made the mix from, dig trenches in the box to make the formations of the liverock, and pour your mix in and smoooth and round if you'd like, sprinkle some dry aragonite on top and let it dry for a few days. I soak the rocks in freshwater for a night, and then I soak them in white vinagar for 12-24 hours, and then rinse them with freshwater, but I have found out, that letting them sit in freshwater changed every day, for about 3 days fully cures them and can almost guarantee a nice cured rock. Make sure you frequently check the pH and make sure its at acceptible levels before adding it to your tank...keep changing the water until it has cured, or you can speed up the process by adding chemicals. Happy Reefing!

- Jared

[Condiman]

I have also made some LR by using this methood and man dose it work nice

[jman785]

Did you get the recipe from another board I posted on? I imagine you did, unless someone else gave it to you...the salting method works well. I love it.

- Jared

Looks Like Something Im Going To Gave To Try

[jman785]

Its worth the try, most definently.

[skozzy]

What is another name for Portland Cement ? I am in Australia and want to find an equivalent product here to use.. Also does this cement have lime in it ?

And, does anyone here have pictures of their home made rocks ? I would love to see some end results.

Also, how long does it take for life to start to populate it ?

[Charles Poole]

I like live rock that is full of micro organisms and natural fauna from the oceans. Not a big fan of the whole make a fake rock thing. But it does sound a bit interesting...

By cured, I am assuming you mean the portland cement? Not cured in the typical live rock sense.

[jman785]

Correct Indeed. I mean the cement curing process...as well as pH balancing. What you are confused about Charles, is that...this rock...will soon be inhabited, by millions, and millions, of micro organisms, and copepods, etc...but this will only happen if you have previous liverock in the tank, and/or livesand...or if you wanna get technical...a deteravore kit, which I can't spell correctly. This rock, will be inhabited, by various coraline algae's and such, if you have time and patience....its just regular liverock, but made to your specification.

[Charles Poole]

Not confused, just old fashioned I guess. Plus, I get a good discount on LR, so easier for me to buy it. I don't much have the patience to make rock, then buy a detritavore kit. And wait for it all to happen.

I know others have been making reef structures out of portland cement for years, but never talked with anyone who runs a successful reef with these "fake" liverocks. Do they really provide the pourosity of good quality liverock?

[jman785]

Charles: They provide, the pourosity of, great quality liverock! By the way, I meant, if you don't have current liverock in the tank, then you'd probably want to go ahead and seed your tank...with a detritavore kit and other kits if possible. But if you already have current liverock...and it has good coraline algae growth, take a toothbrush, and brush some of the coraline off...it'll soon be spreading all over :) You'll be happy soon.

[Charles Poole]

I am going to give it a try in my next tank. I may be old fashioned, but also very open minded. Plus, my wallet could use a break... :razz:

[jman785]

Yes, that's what made me change over, was the expenses, its so easy to do too... :) Let me know when your going to end up doing it chuck, and I'll help you out.

[Charles Poole]

Thanks Jared, I appreciate the help. :) Should be within the next week.

[jman785]

Be sure to take some pictures if you would! :)

[Condiman]

Yes we love pics :badgrin:

[Charles Poole]

I will take more pictures than you can imagine. I am going to make an article about this setup, so a lot of pics will be taken to visually explain the setup from tank purchase (cost and type) to salt mix and dosing schedule setups.

[Puffy]

kool, i've read about this on GARF.com but this is a better explanation i think. I would do this, but me being only 15 with a small nano tank (jbj 12 gallon nano) i need some good real LR to start out with if ya knwo what i mean.....my lfs dont get LR in so its kinda crapy. anways if i ever get a huge tank like a 55+, i will def be makin my own LR seeded with like 20lbs of reg LR......talkin bout cheap and GARF said with that portland stuff the cost per pound is like .09c per pound!!!! CHEAP!!! OH btw when makin the mold u can also you some CC mixed with the sand, makes it really porous!

[leaffish75]

another idea. use crushed oyster shells, its cheaper. Also if you mix 1 part Muratic acid to 60 parts water the cure time is cut to about 2 days. i do about 30lbs each time. my rocks are very porous. Another idea is use pasta shells like macaroni (spelling stinks) it will dissolve and leave holes in the rocks

:hmm2:

[Puffy]

yea this stuff works good and is very easy!

[EMBLEM]

i tried it this morining and it being my first one, i am very satisfied with it. My advise for everyone is not to try and be like michelangelo and sculp a masterpiece, go easy on your first attemp and go on from there. My rock is not very porus though, so i will have to cover it with a thin layer of cement and add salt and macaroni. i will add pictures when it is all done, but i just got done making it 1 hour ago so it will take some time. overall i spent about 10.00 to make 45 lbs(includeing bucket, glove, cement) next step is to cure and start the coralline algea! any advise on how to grow coralline algea?

[Aquaman]

Can someone please post a picture of their DIY rock. I'd like to see what it looks like.

[Paidbychrist0825]

wait, time out, macaroni?

[EMBLEM]

the macironie will dissolve away leaving a nice porus rock surface

[EMBLEM]

where do you get argonite sand and why is it better than regular sand. also what brand and type of portland cement would you recomend?

[justmy2cents]

where do you get argonite sand


I want to know this also.

[tonyb]

pet smart has argonite sand.

[gman0526]

Jared,

As far as the curing process. I noticed that the time you reccomend to cure the rock (about a week more or less), is by far a lot less than what I have seen in other DIY live rorck links. They state that it should take up to 6 mos. for the PH to balance out, is there a reason for the difference? They were talking about putting the rock in a toilet tank to cure...?

[jman785]

My process doesn't take as long for some reason... :roll:

But as I stated in the article, keep monitoring, and changing water, until you reach a balanced pH.

[jman785]

Pet Smarts, are places your supposed to boycott, considering no one there, cares about the fish they sell...they'll sell a Red Tail Catfish, to somenoe with a 55 gallon tank...knowing the giant this fish will one day be.

[jman785]

So buy aragonite, from a decent place...like a store...or mix in some Southdown Playsand...(Its crushed aragonite, but they sell it at some Home Depots, in the Northern States)

I have made about 600 lbs of this and it averaged about 9 cents a pound. Seeded it all with Kaelini live rock and sold a good bit of it for 4.00 dollars a pound. Havent made any recently as I am getting ready for a 2400 mile move but this Sept I will be making a whole lot more of it I have found it too profitable not to. Porous? I can almost pour water through it! Coralline algae grows on it quiet readily, all of my frags get attached to plugs I also made and grow quiet well, not to mention make it easy to tuck them into existing rock work in reefers aquariums.

The greatest advantage to this rock other than being stupid cheap is that you can make your rock shaped to your specific needs. Try finding enough "Real" Live rock to pull that off in a 135 plus gallon tank at 1.25 lbs per a gallon without braking the bank or spending months pouring over vats of Live rock hand picking your rock! Even if you did pull that off I guarentee it would cost much more than 9 cents a pound!!!

If I buy any more "Live Rock" it will be to seed my DIY rock, not to fill my tank.

JMHO.........

[jman785]

I heard that :) It takes a little while, to seed the rock...but after that, its all uphill, because the rock just loves coralline, mine does anyway :)

[cich1]

still waiting for those pics :D

[newtofish]

another idea. use crushed oyster shells, its cheaper. Also if you mix 1 part Muratic acid to 60 parts water the cure time is cut to about 2 days. i do about 30lbs each time. my rocks are very porous. Another idea is use pasta shells like macaroni (spelling stinks) it will dissolve and leave holes in the rocks

:hmm2:
If you use pasta shells pressed on the outside it looks like fossels. I made some it did not turn out as pretty as I wanted but it is so covered with growth now you can not tell.
What I like is I can make a piece to fit a certain need in my aquascape without having to change anything.

[jman785]

newtofish,

Yes, this is a great advantage to DIY Liverock.

Although the macaroni thing stinks in my opinion.

Here is a few pics....

The rock you make doesnt have to be ho-hum shaped like these are, this is just what I got left still from selling a lot of it off.

Its dense! Yes it is but doesnt have to be if you use maccaroni, salt, cheerios and a numebr of other items a previously mentioned. It will actually come out to be quiet porous. Plastic shavings is added often times becuase this is what coralline algae wants to grow on first speeding up the coralline growth considerably

How long does it take to cure. Depends on your definition of cure. Usually concrete doesnt finish curing (hardning up) for several days. Its cured enough to handle after about 24 hours though. As you soak it in water, the other cureing process, it will leach out lyme and alkalies which will blow your PH to insaine levels. Continue to soak and change the water peridically until the Ph drops below 8.3. I just cant stress that point enough!

How much does it cost to make. It cost between .09 to .30 cents a pound to make depending on the materials in the recipe you use. 1 x 90lbs bag should make about 500-540 lbs of rock for your reefing pleasures. If you make 500 lbs at .30 cents a lbs thats 150 bucks for 500 lbs of rock that once seeded becomes live rock over a short period of time depending on your definition of live rock. Within 6 months mine normally had a good bit of coralline algae and mini feather dusters and what not on it. You cant even buy the rubble out of a importers curing vats for 30 cents a lbs, can you?

There is a down side though. Yep, its true, some mixes will have measurable amounts of aluminum in the as MikeJS pointed out to me. That indeed could be a problem. I have been using it for 2 years and havent noticed any negative effects, so I am still watching for signs. Of course your milage might very well vary to one degree or another. Just be advised it is possible.


If your on a budget or feeling creative , Id say go for it. If your old school...might want to think about it and maybe reconsider....Choice is your dont be late.

One other important note.....Exercise a little Operation Risk Management when working with concrete mix. What is ORM? Its basically taking a minute when working with concrete and analizing the process and possible dangers and then taking steps to alleviate those dangers. Concrete mix when wet is cuastic to your skin. You might be manly and all and play in it for about 30 minutes plus but in an hour or two you will regret it courtsey of chemical burns to your skin. Not very fun, take my word on that one! If it can burn your skin...then that means it can burn your eyes. A pair of safety glasses would be pretty cool to have. They make replacement parts but they dont work as good as OEM ones do! So take care of those eyes. Portland Type II and other mixes are kinda dusty. When mixed with moisture in your lungs...guess what? Yeah you guessed it. That might be a little bit of a problem. Get a dust mask, they are just too cheap as are rubber gloves and Safety Glasses, to not have them.

Its not rocket science but it can cause problems for you if you get sloppy with things. Remember, sometimes stupidy hurts!

[SteelGluer]

Where can you get portland #3 ? I tried home depot and lowes with no luck. Anyone?

[MikeS]

check your local general contractors....they might have some...

Mike

[jman785]

Also #1 and #2 will work as well. I forget the specs. that go with each number, but when I find them I'll post them and let you know what all the numbers mean.

[SteelGluer]

Here is one i found looks interesting.

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/6279/RaiseCementRock.html


http://saltaquarium.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.athiel.com%2Flib 3%2Farago.htm

[bigfoot]

Can you cut curing to 2 days? whats the biggest chunk of it that cured in 2 days? in lbs Im making a very large batch of it like 1000 lbs over next 3-4 mos

[jman785]

The cement curing process isn't really what the 'DIY Rock Maker' thinks...the cement curing process is the process in which the cement is hardening and gaining strength. The DIY Rock Maker, thinks of it as when is it safe to put in my tank, after all the chemicals have leeched out and the pH and Alk, are stable. You have to monitor these levels, and do water changes, etc in order to 'stablize' the rock so its safe for your tank...I seriously doubt, it can be done in 2 days...its going to take a while to get right...many water changes. :)

[jman785]

As you soak it in water, the other cureing process, it will leach out lyme and alkalies which will blow your PH to insaine levels. Continue to soak and change the water peridically until the Ph drops below 8.3. I just cant stress that point enough!


Imaexpat2, has stated this well here. Also cement takes years to fully cure...its always still 'hardening'...it gets harder and harder as the years go.

[MikeS]

Right....the only way to get it to cure more quickly would be to use an accelerant, and I doubt that you would want that stuff leeching out of the rock later on...

Most concrete will reach about 80% strength in 7 days or so, but as noted above, it continues to slowy cure over a long period of time...

Mike

[bigfoot]

I know that but was wondering if it can leach out in a couple days the concrete in the center of the hoover dam should still be wet in like a hundred years or so.wondering about instead of concrete theres a different way to go acout this ie differebt bonding agent like the stuff in inground pools under the plaster layer its like concrete but safer i think

[bigfoot]

Hey i just thought of something... to cure agrocrete place it in a stream bed or creek after a week of curing to leach out the super high levels in a bucket the creeks flow would help cure it quick with out all the mess i live in bumpkinville suburbanized but make sure its clean water no pesticides or nuthun like that i gotta creek thats about 100 ft from my fence im gonna give it a try and its got a prettyt good flow rate since its starting to do the spring run off thing kinda turns into a river for about a month and ill let ya all know flow is about 8 cubic feet per second so it should leach out quickly so the ph really wouldnt affect anything too much. The flow wont let the ph raise it any and it saves water waste and alot of time and try this USE WATER SOFTNER SALT IN THE MIX MAKES IT VERY POURUS

[bigfoot]

Oh yea.... use some stretchy silicone air tubing and put it in rock as you are creating for water passages through the rock or put in some larger tubing and make it so you can snake it back through after cured to hook to a powerhead or pump to camo your powerheads in 1 corner but run lines under the substrate where ever you want it to come out :-D
ps.......... id recommend soaking rock out of creek for a week in super salty water to kill all freshwater life and growth and to leech out toxins it may have picked up in the creek and b4 it goesinto the tank id give it a nice hot soak in tub to make sure its oil free and if ya see oil of any type toss it in the flower bed or trash dont put it in the tank no matter what you wont get it all if there is any

[MikeS]

I know that but was wondering if it can leach out in a couple days

I would doubt it....these accelerants will likely stay in the chemical makeup concrete pretty permenantly, increasing the likelyhood of them leeching into your tank over time

the concrete in the center of the hoover dam should still be wet in like a hundred years or so.

Thousands, actually.... :-D In reality, that is somewhat of an oversted myth....the concrete in the center isn't really "wet"....however it is still in the curing process, meaning it is simply getting harder and stronger as time goes by.

wondering about instead of concrete theres a different way to go acout this ie differebt bonding agent like the stuff in inground pools under the plaster layer its like concrete but safer i think

Well, the binders and chemical makeup of this type of stuff is probably very similar to cement, the main difference is most likely in the nominal size of the aggregate used in the concrete mix. (ie a much smaller mix, like sand). The goal of this is to achieve a more "waterproof" layer. You wouldn't want to use this something like this I would think, because it would likely render your homemade rock too dense pound for pound to be effective as LR style biological filtration. You want your homemade LR to be as porous as you can possibly make it.


Hey i just thought of something... to cure agrocrete place it in a stream bed or creek after a week of curing to leach out the super high levels in a bucket the creeks flow would help cure it quick with out all the mess i live in bumpkinville suburbanized but make sure its clean water no pesticides or nuthun like that i gotta creek thats about 100 ft from my fence im gonna give it a try and its got a prettyt good flow rate since its starting to do the spring run off thing kinda turns into a river for about a month and ill let ya all know flow is about 8 cubic feet per second so it should leach out quickly so the ph really wouldnt affect anything too much. The flow wont let the ph raise it any and it saves water waste and alot of time and try this USE WATER SOFTNER SALT IN THE MIX MAKES IT VERY POURUS

Unless this is a high mountain stream, the odds of it being clean enough are pretty slim. Below the foothills, you'll get all kinds of stuff in there...runoff from agriculture, which would include fertilizers, possibly pesticides. There could be runoff from roads, which would have petroleums, salts, all kinds of bad stuff. Soaking and rinsing alone may not be enough to remove them from the rock. Then there are microbes, bacteria and germs...boiling may get some of them, or maybe not...

Also there is potentially legal issues...cement has lots of stuff in it....local athorities may frown on you curing 1000lbs of it in a stream...

Good idea....but.... :wink: :-D

Mike

[bigfoot]

im gonna make over the course of about 6 months probably do it 100 lbs at a time in a couple 300 gallon rubbermaid stock tanks

Bigfoot, for making that much a 75 gallon poly tank will work just fine, be of a much more managable size, and cost about a buck a gallon too! It also comes with a plug at the bottom making daining it for water changes so much easier as well. This size tank will easily handle a couple of hundred lbs at a shot.

[bigfoot]

thx ill keep it in mind

[a6t9p]

Ok just let everyone know there is only one diff. from type 1 or 2 portland cement. strenght is not affected only thing that is diff is the color which one is a lighter and the other is darker mostly used if you are making a patio or walkway. mix should be 1 cement to 3 sand and can be mixed with 1c to 6s but strenght may be a concern since i have heard of the cement flaking of after awhile. I asked one of my family members about the diff. he is a mason(brick layer) i asked cause i was interested my self iin making the rock i would also try to avoid the use od quickcrete do to the fact that it coulf pausably contain chemical for the quick drying time it provides and those chems u might never be able to get out

[jman785]

a6t9p,

The differences aren't simply the color...its about what their different uses are for, such as Portland 3, is able to withstand high counts of salts and calcium, which is why mostly bridges and area's where it snows a lot is where they use it more commonly. Of course in larger amounts than the amounts we are buying and mixing our rock.

The strength of the rock would be weakened buy say salts and calcium used to melt snow and frozen roadways...therefore strength would be affected.

[a6t9p]

TYPE I

Type I is a general purpose Portland cement suitable for all uses where the special properties of other types are not required. It is used where cement or concrete is not subject to specific exposures, such as sulfate attack from soil or water, or to an objectionable temperature rise due to heat generated by hydration. Its uses include pavements and sidewalks, reinforced concrete buildings, bridges, railway structures, tanks, reservoirs, culverts, sewers, water pipes and masonry units.
TYPE II

Type II Portland cement is used where precaution against moderate sulfate attack is important, as in drainage structures where sulfate concentrations in groundwaters are higher than normal but not unusually severe (Table). Type II cement will usually generate less heat at a slower rate than Type I. With this moderate heat of hydration (an optional requirement), Type II cement can be used in structures of considerable mass, such as large piers, heavy abutments, and heavy retaining walls. Its use will reduce temperature rise, an important quality when the concrete is placed in warm weather.
TYPE III

Type III is a high-early strength Portland cement that provides high strengths at an early period, usually a week or less. It is used when forms are to be removed as soon as possible, or when the structure must be put into service quickly. In cold weather, its use permits a reduction in the controlled curing period. Although richer mixtures of Type I cement can be used to gain high early strength, Type III, high-early-strength portland cement, may provide it more satisfactorily and more economically.
ingrediants chemical combination of calcium, silicon, aluminum, iron and small amounts of other compounds, to which gypsum is added in the final grinding process to regulate the setting time of the concrete. Some of the raw materials used to manufacture cement are limestone, shells, and chalk or marl, combined with shale, clay, slate or blast furnace slag, silica sand, and iron ore. Lime and silica make up approximately 85 percent of the mass (1).

[jman785]

a6t9p,

Thanks for posting this..although Type III doesn't have all of the information posted with it.

[bigfoot]

yea th rubbermaid stock tanks are 300 g for 84 bucks up here

[jman785]

That's not bad at all.

[asnatlas]

This looks very interesting; I will have to do more research on this...

Thx
Shawn

[Boulicomtois]

Just a question : Does someone know how many time does it take for micro-organism to colonize fake Liverocks? Or, in other words, does it take a long time for fake liverocks to become true (and active) liverocks...

[FishinInTheDark]

Bouli: Great idea to put the conversion in your signature!

If you have a few pieces of live rock to seed the base rock, it doesn't take long. Three or four months should show pretty good corraline growth, and in six months you probably won't be able to tell the difference.

[2639]

From what I gathered here is that using Portland types I or II or III doesn't matter. We don't have III here in chattanooga, only I and II. What about the aragonite sand? We don't have that either. Where is the best place to order it?

I'm certainly going to do this. Gotta cut costs SOMEWHERE LOL

Wanna cut the cost even more? Use crushed Oyster Shell courtesy of your local feed store or Farm Supply. It is sold to farmers raising chickens. Its Dirt cheap and it posses the same attributes that Argonite would and it adds a lot of texture to your rock!

[2639]

Use that instead of sand completely? interesting :D

It has the same basic make up that crushed coral does, ie...its calcium based. Yes it will need to be rinsed a bit as its for chickens and sold in 50 lbs bags out of dusty ware house type facilities where I am sure it collects some dust and such. Its also sold by the lbs too. Coralline algae is quick to start growing on the exposed flakes of shell sticking through the cement. This is what I first used as opposed to Agronite when I made my fist batch of DIY Live Rock 3 years ago.

[MikeS]

Before you dive into DIY live rock, be aware of the downsides....

#1...on a lb per ft3 ratio, aragocrete (artificial live rock) falls way short compared to real live rock...look at GARFs home page and see how may goofy ways they have come up with to increase porosity in the artificial rock....bottom line for the hobbyist, aragocrete is much more dense lb per lb than the average LR, meaning it will be a far less efficient biological filter, both aerobic and anerobic.

#2 a major ingredient in cement is aluminium...aluminium is a proven photoinhibitor and biocompounder in corals....

#3...the crushed coral and aragonite used to make aragocrete is typically saturated with phosphates...making phosphates a more significant issue compared to real LR...

My advice, skip the aragocrete and save for good real LR....

MikeS

[bigfoot]

NOTE:::::::::::::::::If you make some or want to make some 90% of portland supplies are going directly to hurricane repair in the south buy your portland now i couldnt find a single bag any where so i used quickrete and had to screen out the sand and gravel......

[gman0526]

#3...the crushed coral and aragonite used to make aragocrete is typically saturated with phosphates...making phosphates a more significant issue compared to real LR...

My advice, skip the aragocrete and save for good real LR....

MikeS

And we really need more phospate to fuel all kinds of algae growth in our tanks. :roll: :lol:

If LR is too expensive for you to start up you can always get some base rock. Even aquacultured rock is base rock dumped in the ocean to be seeded naturally, I can't recall a major acquacultured rock seller that uses aragocrete.other than I think Walt Smith.

[bigfoot]

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=5931305#post5931305

this guys tank is mostly all agrocrete dont see an algea problem here besides you can get rid of phosphates in water and rock i checked it out :)

[gman0526]

The problem with PO4 is that it won't necessarily be released on the water column inmediately and all at the same time. I'm not saying it won't work as an alternative to LR, just be mindful that you might have a ticking bomb in your tank.

[bigfoot]

ill make a fuge when i move my tank into the addition im going to build in basement ohhhh about 140 gallons or so

[bigfoot]

#3...the crushed coral and aragonite used to make aragocrete is typically saturated with phosphates...making phosphates a more significant issue compared to real LR...

ok but when i have 80lbs of the same sand on the bottom whats the difference? everything in this world has phosphate including natural LR all corals need certain amounts of it to survive and humans love it (junk food) phusphates can be broken down i do believe it was bleach to soak em out so i give rock a 3 week bath in bleach when ph stabalizes and then soak it for 4 more with a bottle of prime to suck bleach and clorine out

[jman785]

Before you dive into DIY live rock, be aware of the downsides....

#1...on a lb per ft3 ratio, aragocrete (artificial live rock) falls way short compared to real live rock...look at GARFs home page and see how may goofy ways they have come up with to increase porosity in the artificial rock....bottom line for the hobbyist, aragocrete is much more dense lb per lb than the average LR, meaning it will be a far less efficient biological filter, both aerobic and anerobic.

#2 a major ingredient in cement is aluminium...aluminium is a proven photoinhibitor and biocompounder in corals....

#3...the crushed coral and aragonite used to make aragocrete is typically saturated with phosphates...making phosphates a more significant issue compared to real LR...

My advice, skip the aragocrete and save for good real LR....

MikeS

All of what Mike has quoted have been true, although I've never seen aluminum levels increase in my tank, due to adding aragonite based liverock to my tanks, I use test kits by Lamotte that are all computer based tests and it doesn't even detect the hint of aluminum.


Phosphates I haven't seen an increase either.

[bigfoot]

hmm well im kinda stuck i had to screen out some regular quikrete of its aggregates because i cannot find portland cement anywhere but its not sticking together too well i guess i messed it up did 4 parts CO to1 part cement

[MikeS]

ok but when i have 80lbs of the same sand on the bottom whats the difference?

Good point, there is no difference....however more sand=more phosphate...it may or may not become problematic in your tank, every setup is unique....

everything in this world has phosphate including natural LR all corals need certain amounts of it to survive and humans love it (junk food)

yes, but natural LR is going to have a significantly lower amount than aragonite.....aragonite is mined from dry areas, where it has been exposed to runoff, hence the higher phosphates...and yes, living things need it as a nutrient, but too much isn't good etiher...

phusphates can be broken down i do believe it was bleach to soak em out so i give rock a 3 week bath in bleach when ph stabalizes and then soak it for 4 more with a bottle of prime to suck bleach and clorine out

I'll have to check on that one...

MikeS

[kornholio]

Does anyone have a good source for the Carib Sea aragonite and the live sand?
what else works besides styrofoam boxes, as I haven't ordered anything yet because it's a new tank setup?

So you fill the box with sand and pour the soupy mix of concrete and aragonite into that? I need some big rocks as I am setting up a 420 gal. tank that's 4'wide x 8'long x 2'high. please give me some suggestions on how I can make very large rocks in narly shapes. Any ideas are appreciated!!

Thanks for posting this as I was wondering how I was going to pay for enough live rock for that big of a tank. :-D

[Cindarian]

Before you dive into DIY live rock, be aware of the downsides....

#1...on a lb per ft3 ratio, aragocrete (artificial live rock) falls way short compared to real live rock...look at GARFs home page and see how may goofy ways they have come up with to increase porosity in the artificial rock....bottom line for the hobbyist, aragocrete is much more dense lb per lb than the average LR, meaning it will be a far less efficient biological filter, both aerobic and anerobic.

#2 a major ingredient in cement is aluminium...aluminium is a proven photoinhibitor and biocompounder in corals....

#3...the crushed coral and aragonite used to make aragocrete is typically saturated with phosphates...making phosphates a more significant issue compared to real LR...

My advice, skip the aragocrete and save for good real LR....

MikeS
Mike your dense, Skip the Aragonite and lets kill reefs as well as our Pocket books. Dude wish everyone had those smarts.

[MikeS]

Mike your dense, Skip the Aragonite and lets kill reefs as well as our Pocket books. Dude wish everyone had those smarts.

Thank you very much! :biggrin: Flaming is always a GOOD way to lend credibility to your arguement! :biggrin:

Before you flame next time, please do some research on Live Rock harvesting figures and cost vs. aragocrete...

MikeS

[gman0526]

Sure, let's not kill the reefs by taking rock, let's just support the cement industry and help them kill everything else :roll:

http://www.ec.gc.ca/cleanair-airpur/Cement-WS02EF2EC2-1_En.htm

http://www.downwindersatrisk.org/DownwindersAtRisk-CementKilnsDirtyLittleSecret.htm

http://www.epa.gov/ttncaaa1/t3/fact_sheets/portf_fs.pdf

If we're so concious about LR harvesting, then we should look into alternatives like aquacultured rock, base rock and such.

[MikeS]

The vast majority of corals and fish on the marine market are not aquatcultured in captivity...and those that are utimately came from wild collected specimens...like it or not, or hobby comes from harvesting from the sea...you can't have it both ways...

MikeS

[newtofish]

I have a question? I have started useing "pulzerized limestone" made by the pavestone company and readily available at Home Depot for the sub strait in my tanks. I have had no problem with it and it is only about $4.00 a 50# bag.
Would this be a good alternative to use in making "Limestonecrete"?
I am setting up a 125 and I wanted to make some (about 30 lbs) unique shapes to fill some areas around some equipment.
Thanks for the information you guys are posting, it is informative. I am doing my reasearch and I believe that the "man made" LR will be OK if cured correctly.

[gman0526]

As Mike stated the "problem" is bound PO4. Quarried rock/sand coming from limestones many times is loaded with PO4. This as well as aragocrete used to build artificial reefs in the wild represents no problem at all in the open ocean where difussion/flushing rates are 1,000,000 xs what it is in an enclosed system as our tanks. HTH.

[snapper]

I made live rock using salt and cement about a year ago. It is all covered with alge and various forms of life just like real live rock. It does take a while to begin to look like the rest of your rock. I do like buying live rock because the end result is I am adding the different forms of life that come on the live rock. It is also very hard to get all the little hole and caves that come with purchased live rock. I have an atlantic annome that likes my home made rock so it can't be all bad. I used small PVC pipe to make holes and tunnels all the way through to provide hiding places.

[brandon]

any pics